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[–] 24 points 2 months ago (71 children)

Imperialism is not an action to be committed on a whim, in the eyes of communists, but relevantly is a stage in capitalist development. As bank and industrial capital consolidate and monopolize, they form finance capital, which seeks to expand internationally and thus the economy shifts from focusing on commodity export to capital export. This is a material system, with definite material causes, not something to be engaged upon at a whim.

The idea that countries would simply be evil if they had the opportunity to is an idealist argument, not a materialist one, and thus is anti-scientific. This is closer to a religious look on life than a scientific one.

Further, as we are placing the Soviet Union in its actual, historical context, nationalities were protected, languages that were never written were alphabetized, and the right of secession was protected. Tremendous development happened, and ethnic minorities were culturally protected and celebrated. There were instances of population transfer, and this by modern standards would be considered barbaric. However, this practice was enormously common among capitalist peers like the UK and US, and neither of them had the same level of thought and care placed into respecting and uplifting various ethnicities.

The only conclusion here is that you either are entirely unfamiliar with the true severity of repressions committed by the west, and therefore the shift to the positive direction as compared to their peers, or are entirely unfamiliar with the sheer care and uplifting that did go on when it comes to ethnic minority rights in the USSR, despite failures like population transfer.

This is why we are pointing out that you do not take a scientific approach to history.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago (55 children)

    Evil is a moral idea, not a material process. That's my point.

    Either way, I have an interest in defending points that were actually made, not the horrendous fantasy you made up, nor the idealism you are spouting. Nobody is making you do this, you have every opportunity to approach the conversation from a point of good-faith, but instead you have shifted goalposts and made quasi-fascist points surrounding culture.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago (33 children)

    Morals are not the same as material processes. Simply saying "evil" as a reason for something is not a scientific answer for the behavior of societies.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (24 children)

    there is no legitimate social sciences.

    Stemlords should be forced to study social sciences.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago (22 children)

    Sorry I just think you dismissing anthropology, archaeology, economics, geography, history, linguistics, psychology, sociology, political science and more as entirely illegitimate would likely be fixed by you having a background in them off which to speak instead of spewing nonsense.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (19 children)

    Those are social sciences there isn’t however a social science.

    That's great but you said:

    "there is no legitimate social sciences."

    Also this is nonsense like saying there is no physics because when it comes to study it's broken into subfields.

    As for the rest of your nonsense all science is, is:

    A systematic method or body of knowledge in a given area.

    Psychology is absolutely a science. As for history you're probably right that in and of itself it is not a science but it is a core part of much of the rest of the social science fields, this however doesn't do much to further your argument that the social sciences as a field are illegitimate.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (17 children)

    First off you said social sciences were illegitimate also you have a very feeble grasp of what makes a field legitimate, we obviously have not found an encompassing theory for all society, but so what? The same is true fo physics, maths and so many other fields. You seem like a disgruntled stemlord and I would invite you to engage in some self reflection (and I understand in the west this may only be for the privileged few but) you should also try engage with these subfields a bit before denouncing the entire field.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (15 children)

    Wow abelism from a debatelord never seen that before. Apologies that my grammar isn't perfect in my fourth language your majesty I'll try do better in the future /s

    The fact is you're wrong and are simply trying to find anything you can to weasel out of facing that fact that the field of social science is real, it's subfields are legitimate and you have nothing but vibes and misunderstandings behind your thought to try hold up some vague heir of superiority you feel.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Daft when used as a pejorative (a stand in for calling someone crazy or deranged) absolutely is.

    Again simply because the field is yet to be completed doesn't make it illegitimate. Physics has yet to be unified, math has yet to be completed yet they remain science. You are severely uninformed and again I implore you to do some self reflection and actually engage with the science and scientific community. You are not as intelligent as you think and clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Daft is usually a pejorative, it isn’t however ableist that’s just crybaby bullshit you’re using to try move the conversation into culture war bullshit instead of the actual conversation.

    Calling someone crazy or deranged is absolutely ableist. The only one here trying to change the conversation is you.

    You’re implying at some point without any evidence whatsoever that we could end up finding everything is objectively provable through what I can only assume is psychohistory which isn’t likely our at all reasonable to assume

    Entirely not what I said, like completely not even in the same area of anything I said genuinely impressive strawman building.

    I wonder what you call the field to which the sub fields you call social sciences might belong, it couldn't possibly be called social science as an umbrella term?!?!?!

    You are unintelligent, uninformed and massively arrogant. You clearly have never interacted with or contributed anything to the scientific community and it really shows. Please take some time to reflect instead of continuing to be a debatepervert.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    It doesn't solely mean crazy or deranged, it can also mean plain stupid. Take a crack at which I meant. Similarly that still doesn't make it ableist bud.

    That's absolutely your implication hence the word imply.

    It's not, there's natural science, social sciences and humanities.

    So far you've proved nuh uh and the same attitude and arrogance, calm down there pot.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    It doesn’t solely mean crazy or deranged, it can also mean plain stupid. Take a crack at which I meant. Similarly that still doesn’t make it ableist bud.

    Yes it does bud. You are a an albeist asshole and should be ashamed of yourself.

    That’s absolutely your implication hence the word imply.

    But it wasn't it was a straw man not even in the same area of thought of anything I said.

    It’s not, there’s natural science, social sciences and humanities.

    I wish I could be as confident as you in just saying shit it really is a skill for the privileged.

    Pot

    See the difference between us is I have interacted with and contributed to the scientific community through my PhD and time as a researcher at a university whereas you given everything I've seen most likely didn't make it past mandatory schooling. You reek of YouTube university educated stemlord.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    I was very clearly responding to

    Similarly that still doesn’t make it ableist bud.

    Hence ending that particular sentence in bud not your attempt to weasel out of using ableist language as everyone knows thats bullshit. Daft could have 10,000 other definitions but everyone knows which you meant before you were called out. Trying to shrodingers bigot yourself has never worked for anyone.

    It's not at all what I implied and the fact you keep doubling down on this ridiculous strawman is what really makes no sense.

    Yeah again were speaking English because it's your language you couldn't even speak to me in any of my more native languages so condescending about it is silly.

    It's an educated guess given how you talk about what is and isn't science it's the kind of attitude that would get you laughed out of a lab until you fixed your attitude. It's the attitude of someone who watches science videos or has interest in some field of science like astronomy or astrophysics but has never actually studied it instead watching edutainment about it.

    I wasn't crying about anything simply pointing it out and the fact that instead of simply apologising and moving on you felt the need to double triple and quadruple down just shows the kind of person you really are.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Depends on what you define natural sciences as I imagine but under the generally accepted definition (geology, biology etc.) it 100% exists.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Add all of those together and it still doesn't equal nature hence natural sciences not natural science.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    That's why people started referring to natural science as empirical science, you're not making the point you think you are because that's a sticking point in science.

    It's just been referred to as "natural ___" since like 3000bc or something crazy like that, it'll take a minute to break the habit.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Please stop arguing about shit you have no clue of by making shit up while you go.

    Morals have weight homie, hand waving away immoral acts by saying they’re just opinions is obtuse at best.

    You lost the argument up there.
    How do you measure the weight of morals? What happens if you leave the dimension of mere opinion? Please do not answer.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    Wow abelism from a debatelord never seen that before. Apologies that my grammar isn’t perfect in my fourth language your majesty I’ll try do better in the future /s

    😆

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Those are natural sciences there isn’t however a natural science. Similarly chemistry and biology aren’t sciences and physics isn’t really a thing anymore, it’s a older umbrella term that covered a bunch of stuff like mechanics and electromagnetism.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Why is social science not legitimate?

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago* (19 children)

    Morals are weightless and made up homie, for half of American history it was "wrong" to free a slave

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (17 children)

    So murder is fine

    What's fine mean? You're just using it as a standin for "good" or "acceptable" which again, has no meaning without a subject. Fine for what? Good or acceptable for who?

    most of the world doesn’t agree murder is morally wrong

    What?

    Your slavery example doesn’t work because slavery was and is always immoral

    Then why, for hundreds of years, was it considered so moral in America that it took an entire war to change it? Because most people individually all just happened to lack this obvious, natural morality? Or is it because ideas of morality are made up, arise from material conditions, and are systemically reproduced in a society? That they were able to create a system of moral justifications that excused them in their own minds for supporting slavery, just like liberals today have a system of moral justifications that excuse them in their own minds for supporting the Gaza genocide?

    You seem to think that "right and wrong" exist in some pure elemental form somewhere out in the universe, the way carbon and potassium do, some baseline that human actions can be measured against. They don't. Right and wrong are figments of the human imagination, and only by accepting them for the shadows that they are can we stop chasing them in circles and finally begin to think in useful, concrete, scientific terms.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    What's the total weight of morals right now, in Newtons?

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Weight is a force.
    What did you think it was, and what did you think it was measured in?

    Also, ironic to complain about social sciences not being sciences while also failing at basic physics.

    Also, you are mixing up measures and units of measurement.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    Pretending to be an arbiter of what is and isn't science and not knowing weight is a force measured in Newton's and mass is measured in grams is pretty funny. If they were doing a bit it would be gold. (If only)(One can dream).

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (11 children)

    This is a tautology, this is the same argument as "God is real because we live under religious law."

    Like....yeah man, who would ever make up an arcane system of magic unproveable rules about what's Simply Good and Simply Bad and then use that to make laws that help them control people?

    wouldn’t imprison people for moral failings if they were weightless.

    We do not do this, all of Epstein's pedophile associates are still living as sadistic gods on the stolen wealth of nations.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago* (8 children)

    Oh right, you're that asshole fascist from that Ukraine thread where you argued with everyone and ignored every point made at you because you covered your ears. Also got banned too!

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Very relevant actually considering how you act in this thread. That and your chauvinistic and imperialistic views are pretty horrid and does in fact make you a fascist.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Attacking the argument requires you to make one

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (13 children)

    I’m kind of tired of talking to you because as I stated before, you don’t want to discuss or be open, you just want to be right and state the USSR is the best or something.

    Whatever, Cowbee has been very open and responsive and all you do is talk in circles, misinterpret Cowbee's posts in bad faith and then be insulting.

    Okay looking at your posts in your profile, you're someone who hates Russia A LOT, calls DPRK the "Kim regime" and China "China's single party" like it's a horrible evil dictatorship.

    So basically you were in fact arguing in bad faith from the start while having your bias influences by your fascist, chauvinistic white supremacy. A fucking liberal.

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  • [+] -11 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    He literally just argued work camps were more progressive than western prison practices. Which were also work camps in many places, and also not work camps in other places. I am not being insulting, I am being insulted. And now dogpiled in an attempt to overwhelm. I have nothing to prove, history stands. Many people here will realize how fucking silly it is to argue the USSR was a progressive place.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    He literally just argued work camps were more progressive than western prison practices.

    Those "western prison practices" include private prisons, i.e. slavery.

    Many people here will realize how fucking silly it is to argue the USSR was a progressive place.

    It very unambiguously was. It tremendously improved the lives of people, both directly within its own territory, by helping liberatory anti-colonial movements, and by pushing the Imperial Core to improve workers' rights domestically.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Not every Soviet prison was a labor camp, and many of them were open-air prisons, with weekend visitation, etc. The cartoonist idea of the gulag is a fantasy that did not exist. Meanwhile, the west had concentration camps in the Congo, India, etc.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I never said a gulag, I laughed at how silly it is to propose the concept of a progressive prison.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    The simple fact was that across the soviet justice system, conditions were both enormously better than the Tsarist system, and comparatively better than the majority of capitalist countries, especially if we count western concentration camps in the colonies that Hitler later recreated in Europe. I believe in prison abolition in the long run, but I'm also a communist, I view history as a process and not as a static snapshot. The soviets deliberately tried to make a more humane system, and did so, even if they would be seen as backwards today.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    But that's just not true. People were wrongly imprisoned because of the state's personal goals, the same as the Tsarist system the only better part was the lack of funds and policing power Tsarist Russia had to support their desire to imprison and control the population. People were still imprisoned base on their sexuality, the religious identity and their progressive movements. That's not progressive.

    Nobody is arguing pro western motives here, I don't know why you want to stick to that soo fucking hard. It literally damages every argument you make. Learn to criticize the USSR on it's own actions and stop bringing up the west in every single argument you make it literally weakens it every time. You think across the ENTIRE WEST every prison was wayyy worse than in the USSR? Because that's just not true, the idea of a gulag is definitely made overly cartoonish but being sent to a Siberian labor camp and people dying in these labor camps is absolutely real dude. They did not try to make a more humane system, maybe some people did but some people tried to make more humane prison systems in the west too. Because again, for the like 5th fucking time it is not a this or that argument, a lot of this is cultural global shifts in human rights. Everyone across the world was realizing the need for change. You're making an ass out of yourself trying to push this east vs west thing sooo fucking hard.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    No, the major difference between the Tsarist system and the socialist system was that aristocrats and capitalists were in control of the Tsarist system, while the working classes were in charge of the socialist system. Saying that "dissidents were punished under both" ignores that that means workers and peasants were by far the biggest victim in the Tsarist system, while aristocrats, semi-slavers called kulaks, and capitalists were the biggest victims in the USSR.

    I can criticize the USSR for its genuine shortcomings more effectively than you can, because I put the USSR into its actual historical context, rather than treating it as a static snapshot that exists outside of history. I never said every prison in the west was worse than every prison in the USSR. I said the justice system in the USSR was better than the justice systems in the west on average. This is the actual comparison being made, not the ridiculous strawman.

    Bringing it back to culture rather than material conditions, and erasing it from its historical context, is nothing but quasi-fascism. I don't think you are intentionally relying on fascist rhetoric, but fascism is the path idealism and metaphysics leads down, which is why taking a scientific approach to history is critical.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Mate you are a bloodthirsty shitlib, you are clouded in your racism

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    You:

    also you: continues to post all over the thread

    You listen to what the genocidal, colonial empire says about its enemies and spout it all over the thread. You're fucking vile.

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I am being replied to, he is leaping to everyone of my replies.

    Y'all are so fake and disingenuous.

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