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Turned red after finding out that (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[+] -7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I never said a gulag, I laughed at how silly it is to propose the concept of a progressive prison.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    The simple fact was that across the soviet justice system, conditions were both enormously better than the Tsarist system, and comparatively better than the majority of capitalist countries, especially if we count western concentration camps in the colonies that Hitler later recreated in Europe. I believe in prison abolition in the long run, but I'm also a communist, I view history as a process and not as a static snapshot. The soviets deliberately tried to make a more humane system, and did so, even if they would be seen as backwards today.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    But that's just not true. People were wrongly imprisoned because of the state's personal goals, the same as the Tsarist system the only better part was the lack of funds and policing power Tsarist Russia had to support their desire to imprison and control the population. People were still imprisoned base on their sexuality, the religious identity and their progressive movements. That's not progressive.

    Nobody is arguing pro western motives here, I don't know why you want to stick to that soo fucking hard. It literally damages every argument you make. Learn to criticize the USSR on it's own actions and stop bringing up the west in every single argument you make it literally weakens it every time. You think across the ENTIRE WEST every prison was wayyy worse than in the USSR? Because that's just not true, the idea of a gulag is definitely made overly cartoonish but being sent to a Siberian labor camp and people dying in these labor camps is absolutely real dude. They did not try to make a more humane system, maybe some people did but some people tried to make more humane prison systems in the west too. Because again, for the like 5th fucking time it is not a this or that argument, a lot of this is cultural global shifts in human rights. Everyone across the world was realizing the need for change. You're making an ass out of yourself trying to push this east vs west thing sooo fucking hard.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    No, the major difference between the Tsarist system and the socialist system was that aristocrats and capitalists were in control of the Tsarist system, while the working classes were in charge of the socialist system. Saying that "dissidents were punished under both" ignores that that means workers and peasants were by far the biggest victim in the Tsarist system, while aristocrats, semi-slavers called kulaks, and capitalists were the biggest victims in the USSR.

    I can criticize the USSR for its genuine shortcomings more effectively than you can, because I put the USSR into its actual historical context, rather than treating it as a static snapshot that exists outside of history. I never said every prison in the west was worse than every prison in the USSR. I said the justice system in the USSR was better than the justice systems in the west on average. This is the actual comparison being made, not the ridiculous strawman.

    Bringing it back to culture rather than material conditions, and erasing it from its historical context, is nothing but quasi-fascism. I don't think you are intentionally relying on fascist rhetoric, but fascism is the path idealism and metaphysics leads down, which is why taking a scientific approach to history is critical.

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