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[–] 154 points 2 months ago (69 children)

Which kind of idiot says that to an elementary student? That incredibly dumb.

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  • [–] 72 points 2 months ago

    One of my siblings actually got repeatedly in trouble because my parents weren't dropping her off early. This was in elementary school. Some of the buses didn't even get there by the time she wanted them there (10 minutes before the morning bell rang). The school 'solved' the situation by moving my sister to a different class. Which I guess did solve it for my sister, but I still have no idea how the school decided that was a normal thing to tell children 10 and under to do??

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  • [+] 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (22 children)
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  • [+] 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)
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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    No, you definitely responded to them saying "Which kind of idiot says that to an elementary student? That incredibly dumb." by describing them as "A teacher that actually needs to run a classroom".
    I don't know what kind of classroom you're running but I certainly didn't feel any need to blame a child for their parent dropping them off late.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    You're too focused on blame and responsibility. When a teacher says, "it's your responsibility," they're saying, "ultimately, in life, you are the one who will have to deal with the outcome. You need to plan for the unexpected." It's not a statement of moral responsibility. It's saying, "one way or another, it's your responsibility to be here."

    If a parent is consistently dropping a kid off late, the student needs to reach out to the teacher about that. The teacher can then have a discussion with the parents.

    You solve conundrums like this by getting away from the blame mentality. We're talking about K12 students being late for class, not people being indicted for felonies. We don't need to obsess so much over guilt and innocence or whether once absence is the parent's fault or the student's fault.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Do you not see the disconnect between saying others need to move away from the blame mentality while actively defending blaming the kid? Why would the teacher not be able to independently recognise the pattern of lateness and need a literal 7 year old to point it out? What help could a teacher even offer beyond a report to social services?

    How, as specifically as possible, is 7 year old meant to ensure their own timeliness when they have almost no legal control over their actions?

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not blaming the kid at all. You're confusing blame with responsibility.

    How, as specifically as possible, is 7 year old meant to ensure their own timeliness when they have almost no legal control over their actions?

    Can't answer this as you're too focused on individual blame.

    When I say blame, I'm referring to a moral judgment. If I'm blaming someone, I feel they clearly did something wrong and they should feel bad about it.

    I'm not blaming a kid. I'm saying they're ultimately responsible. Kids and parents have to take responsibility for their tardies, even if they're not the ones at fault. As an adult, paying your bills is your responsibility. Even if some month you miss your rent payment for circumstances beyond your control, you're still responsible for making rent.

    That's why zero-blame systems are a good way to design classroom instruction. You give the kid and parents a certain number of free absences and don't try to assign blame for every single incident.

    Why would the teacher not be able to independently recognise the pattern of lateness and need a literal 7 year old to point it out?

    That's exactly the kind of classroom I'm describing. You give a student a certain number of free tardies. For 90% of kids, they'll stay under the limit and not have a problem. No need to waste time litigating every tardy. But a few will consistently have more than the limit, and that's when you as a teacher can notice the pattern and start investigating.

    And also, don't be too focused on the individual here. A 7 year old doesn't really have individual responsibility for anything. The parents are ultimately always responsible for the student arriving on time. Tardies are just recorded on the student's file, because they're the ones enrolled there. When a 7 year old gets poor marks or a disciplinary action, it's always a situation of shared responsibility between parents and children.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    That’s exactly the kind of classroom I’m describing.
    don’t be too focused on the individual here.

    Fuck you, the kids ARE individuals and classroom planning that doesn't account for that is guaranteed to fail. When you "assign responsibility" by telling a child to fix it themselves you aren't talking to a hypothetical, you are talking to a real, single individual who needs real help and is being told to just somehow transport themselves. The reason so many children are being failed by school systems worldwide is because of people like you who expect them to fit themselves to your expectations regardless of thier personal circumstances.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    That obviously wasn't the part I was responding to.

    Then what were you responding to. The comment you responded to literally only said one thing, about talking to a child. So yeah, that is what you were responding to.

    There's more than one point floating around this discussion. No need to take the bad faith approach and assume I'm responding to the blame issue. No need to be rude.

    No there wasn’t. You were the one that brought up everything else. The only thing being discussed was talking shit to a child.

    But I'm talking specifically about why schools have policies like this.

    Policies like what!?!? Blaming children?

    Often you need to design policies so that blame isn't assigned.

    I think you must be a robot.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    The thing being asked, School Administrator-in-the-making, is to pull your head out of your...woes and troubles, and remember the child in front of you.

    Keeping a condescendingly presumptuous mouth shut, costs no resources and impedes no tardy marking nor the consequences thereof.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    You should have the education required to both define the word 'rude', and use it with nuance. It's a bad look for an educator to use semantics to weasel out of their responsibilities.

    Keeping your mouth shut regarding your opinion about the rationale for a specific tardy instance, costs you zero minutes, and allows you to go back to your resource management game, earlier.

    Without a single repercussion to your process, because as you already previously mentioned, it is simple too much to expect of you to address any of them until the consequences of serial tardiness/truancy come into effect.

    Your children must be respectful to you. They have not yet signed the social contract.

    I owe you no such thing and am already being exceedingly more cordial than I believe your blasé approach towards your effect upon the psyche of your wards merits.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    I do not need to make an appeal to authority, to back my statements up. But yes.

    And in the areas that have to later mitigate the damages done by those who earlier in the chain decided burn out and struggle justified their neglect and abuse.

    Details thereof which shall remain undisclosed, because, again, I do not need to make an appeal to authority here. It's simple humanity.

    So your life is tough. It's not an excuse, or their fault.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago* (4 children)

    I get that teachers are under so much pressure that it may sometimes not be possible to do their jobs while also treating students in a way that is fair and honest, but to me that's one sign among many that there is something deeply wrong with the whole institution, and not something that should be just accepted.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    So is your position that stuff like what is described by OOP is a necessary and worthwhile tradeoff for the smooth operation of a school? Or maybe that it isn't a bad thing at all?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago*

    Smooth operation of a school is not some minor thing to be dismissed

    That's fair, but the benefits of bureaucracy do not negate the ways that it is dehumanizing, even if they happen to outweigh them. The inability of individual bureaucrats to do anything about it also doesn't negate that.

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  • [–] 36 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Elementary school teachers are often children themselves.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Oh, so that's a common thing and it wasn't just the mentally unstable morons at my elementary school? I'm not even surprised tbh.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago*

    We aren't so lucky.

    Children that age have a very sharp sense of fairness and cause/effect relation. They sort their issues out if allowed to.

    The adults in that role most often take it either for the social prestige or because they couldn't get anything better.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    I and all my classmates had walking distance to school - almost all of us without having to cross a road. It was very common at that age to walk to school alone, thus being responsible for being on time as long as we were sent out at an appropriate time.

    I grew up in Europe.

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  • [+] -17 points 2 months ago (27 children)

    Depending on whether or not there's punishment, I might be somewhat OK with this. The whole point of school is to prepare kids for adult life, where your boss may not care why you were late, even if the circumstances were completely out of your control.

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  • [–] 26 points 2 months ago (22 children)

    I mean, maybe in middle school or better yet high school absolutely. Primary usually means Kindergarten to 5th/6th grade in the US so mostly under 10s

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (21 children)

    That's why I said it depends on whether or not there's an actual punishment involved. If it's just a finger wag and a calm "you need to be on time", I'm not concerned. If the kid's actually getting in trouble, with associated punishment, then that's definitely not OK.

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  • [–] 33 points 2 months ago (20 children)

    Nothing better to prepare for the horrors of the modern world than loading kids with guilt about things beyond their control as early as possible.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Got it, at farm scale, who cares if a few apples get bruised by the machinery?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Because that is the cry of the oppressor. Give me a solution that works within my framework and existing constraints.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Look, there is a difference between doing your best in a difficult situation and identifying so much with a system thaf you feel the need to defend it.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    Fair enough.

    You know I think it is okay to acknowledge that there are problems that we don't necessarily know how to fix. It's not perfect and these things can be difficult to sit with, but I'd personally rather that than only acknowledge problems where I know a solution.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Everything you are saying in this thread is the exact opposite of what child care experts say. It’s like you went and thought “hmm all these scientists are wrong, so I’ll say the exact opposite”.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ204094

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1053451211414186

    There’s even one for college/university students https://ii.library.jhu.edu/2015/09/04/what-to-do-when-your-students-arrive-late/ that says “Do not try to embarrass late students in front of the class. Statements such as “I see you’re late again,” or “Why are you late, Mr. Watson?” beg for a reply and can easily domino into greater classroom distractions. A better approach is simply to welcome the late student”

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    Based on the number of adults I've met who think that nothing is their fault ever, kids need to at least be introduced to the concept of personal responsibility even in situations not completely in their control.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    "personal responsibility"

    "out of their control"

    Maybe we should accustom society to holding people responsible for things that are within someone's control?

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Planning for predictable but random events is part of your responsibility.

    There are many random circumstances that can make a person late. Some are a person's responsibility to plan for. Some aren't.

    Consider minor traffic delays. If you're 10 minutes late because of traffic, that's not traffic's fault. That's your fault. A 10 minute traffic delay is not a rare occurrence. You simply shouldn't be operating your schedule with so little margin that a ten minute delay will make you late to something important. If you don't have some margin in your schedule, this is entirely your fault. You built a schedule that only works if absolutely everything goes perfectly right, and then you blamed circumstance when the inevitable happens.

    Then there are some delays that it's not reasonable to expect people to plan for. If you're hours late because you had to rush a family member to a hospital, that's not your fault. That's a legitimate emergency. And it's not reasonable for people to build multi-hour buffers into their daily schedule.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I know SO MUCH about the people who are downvoting this comment.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago

    I'm late for work all the time, my value isn't that it's my capability to do my job.

    Similarly, the kids are responsible for LEARNING. being driven to school late doesn't matter until that is impacted, and when it does it's the issue for the caregivers, not the student.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Yea we should just torture kids at their place of learning because life ain’t fair.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It’s not a teacher’s job to do any of this, because of the problems you stated. Even the smallest schools have some kind of administrator, typically waaaaaaaay too many because administrative bloat is academia’s favorite activity. It is 100% a school administrator/secretary's job to call parents when kids have a tardiness issue.

    What isn’t acceptable is just being shitty to children because life isn’t fair. Thats just abuser behavior.

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