▲ 514 ▼ New sodium-ion battery skips mechanical cooling with 97.9% efficiency (interestingengineering.com) submitted 3 months ago by Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world 91 comments fedilink hide all child comments I've been hearing about these for a few years now. Huge if they work out at a large scale.
[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 33 points 3 months ago (20 children) Any info about energy density? permalink fedilink source hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 26 points 3 months ago (14 children) According to Wikipedia: Looks like power to weight it much higher, while energy per volume and energy per mass is comparable to existing lithium ion batteries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 40 points 3 months ago (11 children) idk about that, the regularly cited reason Na-ion batteries are mainly being looked at for grid storage rather than vehicle applications is their bad Wh/l and W/kg numbers compared to Li-ion. the table in the Na-ion article seems to use "1000W/kg" without a source, and it shows lithium as being about a third of that even though the Li-ion article quotes figures up to 10kW/kg. seems the editors of the two articles aren't cross-checking eachother. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 13 points 3 months ago (5 children) The "1000W/kg" figure appears to be from Wikipedia, which claims https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/sodium-ion-batteries-will-diversify-the-energy-storage-industry/30405 as a source. Wikipedia has the information in a table flagged as "Needs update". Anyway, most of the lithium-ion chemistry variations drop off relatively fast in capacity over repeated charge cycles (the exception being LiFePo4). If the sodium-ion chemistry is better that way, and drops off less in the cold, it's still worth exploring for vehicle use even if the energy density is a little lower. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago In colder climates, the lower density could be offset by better performance in cold. This is why sodium has made it to large mining trucks. permalink fedilink source parent [–] lime@feddit.nu 4 points 3 months ago (3 children) from other comments it seems the energy density of batteries currently on the market is about 2/3rds that of lithium cells. there's also the asymmetry to worry about: with a max discharge rate of 8C but a charge rate of 3C there could potentially be limits on regen braking. if i'm understanding it correctly, sodium cells degrade quickly at higher charge rates. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (1 child) Just put condensers/a small lithium break battery in. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) Interesting, but from what I understand limited charging would only be a problem if you do not have large enough battery capacity. So for heavier vehicles with larger capacity this might not matter much. PS: This video about the CATL NaFePO4 battery also mentions a "half sodium half lithium" battery pack for cars to combine the best of both. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) Googling says 175 whr/kg for catls sodium car battery that's already in production cars vs 270 whr/kg for Tesla's lithium. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago Probably numbers for the raw cell though, not the balancing and cooling which could make sodium a bit more competitive. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago (2 children) W/kilo? Isn't there a h missing or something? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) one is energy density, the other is power density. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ThomasWilliams@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) No, the energy to volume is much less. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 1 point 3 months ago See, that's what I thought, but the wiki article seems to disagree. Or am I just misreading something? permalink fedilink source parent [–] apftwb@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (3 children) I think they are testing Unigrid battery model 72173207 (terrible name). That is their 210Ah NCO prismatic cells. I found this spec sheet. No definitive metrics, but someone else could do the napkin math. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 16 points 3 months ago (2 children) 72173207 (terrible name) That's my daughter's name. It was my great grandmother's name. 😆 1 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DaveyRocket@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) Sounds Arabic permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago We're Episcopal Numerologists. permalink fedilink source parent [–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago CATL's that went into mass prod sometime ago are 175Wh/kg. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 26 points 3 months ago (14 children) According to Wikipedia: Looks like power to weight it much higher, while energy per volume and energy per mass is comparable to existing lithium ion batteries. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 40 points 3 months ago (11 children) idk about that, the regularly cited reason Na-ion batteries are mainly being looked at for grid storage rather than vehicle applications is their bad Wh/l and W/kg numbers compared to Li-ion. the table in the Na-ion article seems to use "1000W/kg" without a source, and it shows lithium as being about a third of that even though the Li-ion article quotes figures up to 10kW/kg. seems the editors of the two articles aren't cross-checking eachother. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 13 points 3 months ago (5 children) The "1000W/kg" figure appears to be from Wikipedia, which claims https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/sodium-ion-batteries-will-diversify-the-energy-storage-industry/30405 as a source. Wikipedia has the information in a table flagged as "Needs update". Anyway, most of the lithium-ion chemistry variations drop off relatively fast in capacity over repeated charge cycles (the exception being LiFePo4). If the sodium-ion chemistry is better that way, and drops off less in the cold, it's still worth exploring for vehicle use even if the energy density is a little lower. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago In colder climates, the lower density could be offset by better performance in cold. This is why sodium has made it to large mining trucks. permalink fedilink source parent [–] lime@feddit.nu 4 points 3 months ago (3 children) from other comments it seems the energy density of batteries currently on the market is about 2/3rds that of lithium cells. there's also the asymmetry to worry about: with a max discharge rate of 8C but a charge rate of 3C there could potentially be limits on regen braking. if i'm understanding it correctly, sodium cells degrade quickly at higher charge rates. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (1 child) Just put condensers/a small lithium break battery in. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) Interesting, but from what I understand limited charging would only be a problem if you do not have large enough battery capacity. So for heavier vehicles with larger capacity this might not matter much. PS: This video about the CATL NaFePO4 battery also mentions a "half sodium half lithium" battery pack for cars to combine the best of both. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) Googling says 175 whr/kg for catls sodium car battery that's already in production cars vs 270 whr/kg for Tesla's lithium. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago Probably numbers for the raw cell though, not the balancing and cooling which could make sodium a bit more competitive. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago (2 children) W/kilo? Isn't there a h missing or something? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) one is energy density, the other is power density. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ThomasWilliams@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) No, the energy to volume is much less. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 1 point 3 months ago See, that's what I thought, but the wiki article seems to disagree. Or am I just misreading something? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lime@feddit.nu 40 points 3 months ago (11 children) idk about that, the regularly cited reason Na-ion batteries are mainly being looked at for grid storage rather than vehicle applications is their bad Wh/l and W/kg numbers compared to Li-ion. the table in the Na-ion article seems to use "1000W/kg" without a source, and it shows lithium as being about a third of that even though the Li-ion article quotes figures up to 10kW/kg. seems the editors of the two articles aren't cross-checking eachother. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 13 points 3 months ago (5 children) The "1000W/kg" figure appears to be from Wikipedia, which claims https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/sodium-ion-batteries-will-diversify-the-energy-storage-industry/30405 as a source. Wikipedia has the information in a table flagged as "Needs update". Anyway, most of the lithium-ion chemistry variations drop off relatively fast in capacity over repeated charge cycles (the exception being LiFePo4). If the sodium-ion chemistry is better that way, and drops off less in the cold, it's still worth exploring for vehicle use even if the energy density is a little lower. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago In colder climates, the lower density could be offset by better performance in cold. This is why sodium has made it to large mining trucks. permalink fedilink source parent [–] lime@feddit.nu 4 points 3 months ago (3 children) from other comments it seems the energy density of batteries currently on the market is about 2/3rds that of lithium cells. there's also the asymmetry to worry about: with a max discharge rate of 8C but a charge rate of 3C there could potentially be limits on regen braking. if i'm understanding it correctly, sodium cells degrade quickly at higher charge rates. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (1 child) Just put condensers/a small lithium break battery in. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) Interesting, but from what I understand limited charging would only be a problem if you do not have large enough battery capacity. So for heavier vehicles with larger capacity this might not matter much. PS: This video about the CATL NaFePO4 battery also mentions a "half sodium half lithium" battery pack for cars to combine the best of both. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) Googling says 175 whr/kg for catls sodium car battery that's already in production cars vs 270 whr/kg for Tesla's lithium. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago Probably numbers for the raw cell though, not the balancing and cooling which could make sodium a bit more competitive. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago (2 children) W/kilo? Isn't there a h missing or something? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) one is energy density, the other is power density. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 13 points 3 months ago (5 children) The "1000W/kg" figure appears to be from Wikipedia, which claims https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/sodium-ion-batteries-will-diversify-the-energy-storage-industry/30405 as a source. Wikipedia has the information in a table flagged as "Needs update". Anyway, most of the lithium-ion chemistry variations drop off relatively fast in capacity over repeated charge cycles (the exception being LiFePo4). If the sodium-ion chemistry is better that way, and drops off less in the cold, it's still worth exploring for vehicle use even if the energy density is a little lower. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago In colder climates, the lower density could be offset by better performance in cold. This is why sodium has made it to large mining trucks. permalink fedilink source parent [–] lime@feddit.nu 4 points 3 months ago (3 children) from other comments it seems the energy density of batteries currently on the market is about 2/3rds that of lithium cells. there's also the asymmetry to worry about: with a max discharge rate of 8C but a charge rate of 3C there could potentially be limits on regen braking. if i'm understanding it correctly, sodium cells degrade quickly at higher charge rates. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (1 child) Just put condensers/a small lithium break battery in. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) Interesting, but from what I understand limited charging would only be a problem if you do not have large enough battery capacity. So for heavier vehicles with larger capacity this might not matter much. PS: This video about the CATL NaFePO4 battery also mentions a "half sodium half lithium" battery pack for cars to combine the best of both. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 months ago In colder climates, the lower density could be offset by better performance in cold. This is why sodium has made it to large mining trucks. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lime@feddit.nu 4 points 3 months ago (3 children) from other comments it seems the energy density of batteries currently on the market is about 2/3rds that of lithium cells. there's also the asymmetry to worry about: with a max discharge rate of 8C but a charge rate of 3C there could potentially be limits on regen braking. if i'm understanding it correctly, sodium cells degrade quickly at higher charge rates. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (1 child) Just put condensers/a small lithium break battery in. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) Interesting, but from what I understand limited charging would only be a problem if you do not have large enough battery capacity. So for heavier vehicles with larger capacity this might not matter much. PS: This video about the CATL NaFePO4 battery also mentions a "half sodium half lithium" battery pack for cars to combine the best of both. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (1 child) Just put condensers/a small lithium break battery in. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lime@feddit.nu 3 points 3 months ago i think bmw was working on something like that. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) Interesting, but from what I understand limited charging would only be a problem if you do not have large enough battery capacity. So for heavier vehicles with larger capacity this might not matter much. PS: This video about the CATL NaFePO4 battery also mentions a "half sodium half lithium" battery pack for cars to combine the best of both. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago (1 child) Googling says 175 whr/kg for catls sodium car battery that's already in production cars vs 270 whr/kg for Tesla's lithium. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago Probably numbers for the raw cell though, not the balancing and cooling which could make sodium a bit more competitive. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 months ago Probably numbers for the raw cell though, not the balancing and cooling which could make sodium a bit more competitive. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 3 months ago (2 children) W/kilo? Isn't there a h missing or something? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] lime@feddit.nu 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) one is energy density, the other is power density. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lime@feddit.nu 1 point 3 months ago (1 child) one is energy density, the other is power density. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago Aah, makes sense. I have seen soo many people confounding power and energy I thought it was the same here, my excuses. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ThomasWilliams@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) No, the energy to volume is much less. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 1 point 3 months ago See, that's what I thought, but the wiki article seems to disagree. Or am I just misreading something? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DahGangalang@infosec.pub 1 point 3 months ago See, that's what I thought, but the wiki article seems to disagree. Or am I just misreading something? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] apftwb@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago (3 children) I think they are testing Unigrid battery model 72173207 (terrible name). That is their 210Ah NCO prismatic cells. I found this spec sheet. No definitive metrics, but someone else could do the napkin math. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 16 points 3 months ago (2 children) 72173207 (terrible name) That's my daughter's name. It was my great grandmother's name. 😆 1 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DaveyRocket@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) Sounds Arabic permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago We're Episcopal Numerologists. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 16 points 3 months ago (2 children) 72173207 (terrible name) That's my daughter's name. It was my great grandmother's name. 😆 1 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DaveyRocket@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) Sounds Arabic permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago We're Episcopal Numerologists. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DaveyRocket@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 child) Sounds Arabic permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago We're Episcopal Numerologists. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 3 months ago We're Episcopal Numerologists. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago CATL's that went into mass prod sometime ago are 175Wh/kg. permalink fedilink source parent