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Gotta have my bacon (lemmy.world)
submitted 3 months ago by to c/memes@lemmy.world
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[–] 7 points 3 months ago (15 children)

Btw, veganism is really about just minimizing the harm you cause to the world. Don’t let any puritans tell you otherwise. What you have described is a form of veganism! Admittedly, it’s a little bit minimalistic, but it’s still something!

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

    From thevegansociety.com, emphasis mine. I'd argue strongly and vehemently that what is described above is not "as far as is possible and practicable" at all! It's firmly within "as long as it doesn't really inconvenience me" territory

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not a perfect vegan, I do my best, and I'm getting better. The expectation of perfection is self defeating. Ideally, though, I would have zero captive slaughtered animals in the world.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Right, I'm explicitly talking about "as far as is practicable and possible". For instance I have to take a certain medication in order to function but there is no vegan derivative, they all contain gelatin. It is impossible for me to "exclude all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals". But I do it "as far as is possible" which (at least initially) went far beyond what I considered comfortable.

    And that's the distinction I'm trying to make, if you are sure it is impossible, if it is not practicable (as in, not possible to be put into practice no matter how you twist or turn it), then sure it is what it is. what can you do. No ethical consumption under capitalism. But if you still have holdouts because you aren't "ready" to give up certain treats or comforts then you aren't (yet?) vegan.

    Not being able to reach perfection is no excuse to not get as close as possible to it.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I don't know that there's any one thing that veganism is "all about", per se. There are a ton of good reasons to eat fewer animal products, and everyone can cut out some level of extra saturated fat in their diets. The ability to cull and harvest a disgusting level of animal meat is the reason heart disease is the number one killer of modern humans

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    There are a ton of good reasons to eat fewer animal products...

    And none of those reasons are veganism. Veganism provides a singular reason to not exploit animals any more than we need to for survival.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Just because your vegan doesn't mean you don't eat saturated fats. Coconut oil exists and I use way too much of that shit.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago

    I'm not even fully vegan, I just eat animal fats in heavy moderation and balance them with lots of plants and exercise. I'm not perfect, I like eggs, but eggs aren't fucking healthy in any context. And that's only one of the several phenomenal reasons to eat way fewer animal products and more plant based & home-cooked.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (7 children)

    Then as a vegan you would support raising chickens, pigs, and goats on a small hobby farm where the animals are extremely well cared for and happy?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    animal sanctuaries exist for this reason

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    You didn't answer my question. Would you/do you support the ethical and mutually beneficial raising of animals? Chickens for eggs, milk for dairy animals. No abuse, good healthcare, no premature slaughter, etc.?

    Edit. I just realized I'm not responding to the same person. But the deflection still stands.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    How will you get the milk and eggs without abuse? Cows don't just automatically start producing milk and chickens were bred to lay more eggs at the cost of their health. If you really tried to get these products without abusing the animals it would be so inefficient that only a tiny fraction of people could afford to consume them in bigger amounts.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    That's shifting the goal post to cost, and not answering my question. Humans domesticated chickens long before factory farming existed. Animals breed of their own volition. There ARE farms that are only end-of-life slaughter. Do not force their animals to breed, provide excellent lives, etc. Who cares if it's inefficient? That wasn't the question. I'm going to ask the same question again. Are you universally against ALL animal products on principle, or would you be okay with goats cheese, as an example, if you could be certain it had a phenomenal life?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Considering I don't see animals as some product that exists for me so I would consider eating goats cheese in this utopian scenario the similarly as eating cheese made from human milk; really fucking weird, with the addition that human cheese would probably be made with the explicit consent of the human it stems from which the goat can never give unless you want to open the floodgates to even more sexual animal abuse

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    It's wild how many people can't separate an animal from the ways it can benefit people. If a goat is making milk, it probably has a baby to feed. The idea of just letting it feed that baby doesn't seem to occur to people. They see the milk as a product for their own use, and if people aren't using it, it's "wasted." It only makes sense if one's never critically examined their choices in a world full of exploitation.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago*

    The problem you're describing is extremely niche. A rescued cow that is still lactating, where the calf could not be rescued, will likely need to be milked in order not to develop any issues in her udder. That milk is a byproduct of a medical procedure made necessary by the abuse she suffered. I would see to it that it gets put to use for the cow children first but in the end whether you pour it down a drain or your throat makes no difference. However that milk will dry up after a couple months anyway. No mammal produces milk just because, it is always to provide for a child.

    As for if making cheese out of that milk would be vegan, it depends on the rennet I suppose. For cows you don't have to butcher calves anymore so it's likely gonna be possible. For goats I don't know.

    A rescued sheep might need to get shorn regularly due to a problem of its breed. However again the focus is not getting wool, it's to help the sheep, which means it should be shorn more often than at a farm and not as close to the skin than "normally", resulting in a poorer wool quality since the individual hairs are much shorter.

    Like you could ask if eating roadkill is vegan. Sure, if it doesn't interrupt any animals grieving process or rituals, whatever, who cares. I think our ancestors probably scavenged a lot of the animal products they used.

    But there is an ethical issue with breeds that depend on humans for their survival, it's that the people hold the power of life or death over them. There can be no meaningful consent there. Additionally they have to be held in captivity if they would die in the wild. Which is why rescued animals usually aren't allowed to breed. They could never be allowed to breed as they wish anyway, otherwise their population might overwhelm the care humans are capable of giving them anyway, so let's cut it off entirely.

    So your hypothetical vegan animal products depend on rescue farms that would be phased out. There is no vegan way to get animal products in perpetuity.

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