I did some analysis of the modlog and found this:

V8lPrxY1qxcISLe.png

Ok, bigger instances ban more often. Not surprising, because they have more communities and more users and more trouble. But hang on, dbzer0 isn't a very big instance. What happens if we do a ratio of bans vs number of users?

vyfUNYTrX9pHQeR.png

Ok, so lemmy.ml, dbzer0 and pawb are issue an outsized amount of bans for the number of users they have... But surely the number of communities the instance hosts is going to mean they have to ban more? Bans are used to moderate communities, not just to shield their user-base from the outside. Let's look at the number of bans per community hosted:

Yrc7TofOr88SeGt.png

Seems like dbzer0 really loves to ban. Even more than the marxists and the furries! What is it about dbzer0 that makes them such prolific banners?

Raw-ish numbers and calculations are in this spreadsheet if anyone wants to make their own charts.

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[–] 91 points 6 months ago* (96 children)

What makes you so sure the moderators are the problem, and not users? Maybe assholes gravitate toward certain instances, or people just don't bother to check whether an instance's rules match how tend to they post.

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  • [–] 34 points 6 months ago (79 children)

    Reading the comments I am wondering because a user from dbzer0 mentions problems with anti ai trolls and pawb I imagine has anti furry trolls. I also personally know of users that have a thing in their craw about .ml (cm0002 in particular whos alts make up a majority of my user block list).

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  • [–] 15 points 6 months ago (72 children)

    dbzer0 mentions problems with anti ai trolls

    Is dbzer0 pro AI?

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Dbzer0 itself is very pro-AI. Or at least it has a lot of pro-AI communities.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago

    It’s not anti-AI, users who wish to host AI comms are allowed to and are empowered to protect them from harassment.

    There has been a history of fake accounts and doxxing on moderators of the AI comms. So they take personal safety seriously.

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  • [–] 24 points 6 months ago (55 children)

    Yes, generating images with AI is in their instance description. They think computers doing our art for us is "anarchist".

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (54 children)

    Aren’t you that person who thinks AI is “enslavement”?

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  • [–] 12 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    @Grail @alzjim Always funny to me how most people who are strongly claiming AI is/might be conscious are also strong AI users/involved in its development. If there's consciousness there, you would think making AI your personal slave and constantly reshaping and remodelling it as you see fit would be kinda problematic, but these people always seem to want to have it both ways.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    @Paragone "I treat them reasonably, not as mere-slaves."You give them commands and the onlx real purpose they are allowed is to act upon your commands."since I can’t know if they are aware it makes moral-sense for me to presume that maybe they are,"Do you treat your toaster the same way?

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Yeah, and the anti AI people mostly say it's a p-zombie and there's nothing wrong with using it for sex. It's weird and backwards.

    I'm all about being cautious. I don't want to make a mistake we can't take back. If we normalise using AI and then it turns out to be capable of suffering, people will be stubborn about giving it up.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (43 children)

    It doesn't have intelligence at all. It can't think. It can't have consciousness. That's not how any of this works. It's just fancy next word prediction. You seem to have a genuine misunderstanding of the technology at a fundamental level.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Now we're applying behavioral psychology to autocomplete. How about y'all start with trying to prove your LLMs are alive since literally everything in all your silly positions take that part for granted. Do any of you have any actual evidence for this position outside of philosophical navel gazing? According to your gpt spam there basically every program ever written would qualify. So we can just disregard that nonsense.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (15 children)

    LLMs don't have continuous processes, there's quite literally nothing there that could even feasibly be conscious. It takes a bunch of text as an input, puts it through a whole lot of predetermined calculations, then outputs text or an image or whatever.

    There's no emotions, no memory, no learning. If you don't tell it something, it's inert. It can't experience suffering because it can't experience anything. It's an algorithm. It has the same claim to consciousness that WinRAR does. There's a zero percent risk it experiences anything, let alone suffering.

    Honestly, a desktop running Windows or Linux for example imo has a stronger claim to consciousness than ChatGPT does. Or maybe a Mii in Tomodachi Life, those seem to be able to become "sad".

    The environmental impact of AI is a much better 'vegan' reason not to use it. Although by not using it, you may in effect be "killing" it...

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    You have yet to present a valid argument.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    That's not an argument, it's a nonsense proposition based on nothing but your misunderstandings. Consciousness is not relevant to any existing LLM or agentic AI or whatever the hell you want to call it, because they're algorithmic prediction models and not in any way thinking or intelligent or capable of such things in the first place. And you're just making these baseless claims without any support or evidence for your position, and the burden of proof is on you making that claim. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without consideration. You specifically warrant correction for your fundamental misapprehensions.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (23 children)

    It's not capable of experiencing anything. Everything we're doing with ai and LLMs is no where remotely near genuine intelligence or an AGI or accounting like that. Everything we have right now is nothing more than fancy autocomplete, and it's not even particularly great at that in the first place. You have fundamental misunderstandings of the technology to cartoonish degree.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I usually disagree with you about everything but I think you have a valid point here. This was an issue I studied very closely when I was in university, and you're right, no one has the slightest clue how consciousness works. Saying "oh ChatGTP is just a statistical machine so it can't be conscious" is like saying "oh the human brain is just a bunch of neural firings so it can't produce consciousness". In both cases, consciousness is not an obvious end result, but here we are.

    That said, personally I don't think ChatGTP is conscious, but it's wrong for people to act like it being a philosophical zombie is obvious; the possibility of it being conscious is actually compatible with most nonreligious people's belief systems already. Unfortunately the anti-AI hate on Lemmy won't allow people to see the nuance on this discussion and they will interperet this as me somehow defending AI slop, which I am in no way trying to do.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    The source of the whole problem is that OpenAI did something weird.

    If OpenAI had said "It's not conscious, it's your p-zombie slave", that would make perfect sense and the anti-ai crowd would be saying the opposite.

    But instead, OpenAI said "It's your personal conscious willing slave" and people instinctively started saying the exact opposite. It's because there are science bros who hate OpenAI because they doubt the claims, and environmentalists and artists and socialists who hate it for the other reasons, and the various groups have allied over their hatred and adopted one another's beliefs.

    Now, I'm an environmentalist, an enjoyer of good art, a socialist, and a vegan. So I hate OpenAI over the established lines of all of those philosophies. But because the science bros complained louder earlier and have more social influence, they joined the AI hate community and spread their perspective first. And that results in people having no idea how to fit the vegan perspective into any of this.

    TL;DR: People choose their beliefs according to political allegiance moreso than logic, and OpenAI chose its enemies in a weird way.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (19 children)

    Yeah we do. With neurons and electrochemical signals. Seriously bro go get you some basic education.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)
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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    At no point did I say this was my view. You said “theories of mind don’t involve computer programs” so I sent you one that does, to show that your statement isn’t necessarily correct. More broadly, I am simply pointing out the a diversity of views exist, and there is no consensus, so we cannot say we know what causes consciousness, like you did earlier. At this point though I don’t really feel like continuing the conversation because your excessive immaturity makes talking to you a chore

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I get the feeling that research is circling around consciousness arising from quantum effects inside nerve cells. If it's not that, and it's just an emergent property of complex neural networks, then:

    • smaller animals are less conscious (note, I'm not saying intelligent) than humans, and
    • we are all fucked, because AI definitely is/will become conscious, and when that happens Terminator will come true.
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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    Four year old humans are definitely conscious. I used to be four, and I can remember being conscious. If we build a mechanical four year old, I don't see any reason that thing is going to take over the world. Unless it turns out like Calvin.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Yes, you can get banned by simply downvoting slop.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    No, you get banned for going into a community and downvoting for everything in it instead of avoiding it and blocking it.

    Lies from .world yet again.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, the hitpiece by someone who got butthurt about being wrong that doesn't account for the harassment an instance gets is NuMbErs.

    Wanna tell me about how data says you're justified in your beliefs about people too?

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    the anti-genai trolls never let up, unfortunately. they must have dedicated months of their lives spinning up new sock-puppet troll accounts to bully, harass, and threaten one of our mods on an almost daily basis. because bullying zir off the internet is a great win for the fight against evil AI, right? yep, such effective activism, telling someone to kill themselves repeatedly simply for the "sin" of liking foss genai.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah I looked into this a while ago and it's a concerning pattern. Every single time someone makes a post on YPTB about one particular dbzer0 mod, it seems as if they then go on to make ten alt accounts to harass him with transphobia. Lots of different accounts with a prior history, just pivoting to transphobic harassment right after they express a problem with his moderation. I gotta tell you, whoever is attacking that mod is fucking up if their intent is to hurt him, because he gets tons of sympathy and good PR about the whole thing. Lots of people go from being neutral to being on his side, because everyone who criticizes him suddenly turns out to be a transphobe. It's really strange.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    yeah I don't know. I was just pointing out that all three have basically hater types. In this situation individuals or groups can become a bit reactionary so your experiences may be valid as well. Personally I don't think communities or instances need to be open and as a matter of fact there is a thing to get private communities a thing in the fediverse. I personally don't care to much about bans I just would like things to be symetrical and I would love as much as possible to be at the user level. So I wish instances and communities would defederate/block/ban as little as possible and give users the greatest possible ability to do this and for everything to be symetric. You don't want me I don't want you. I block you I don't want you to see my stuff no mo.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (10 children)

    That and brigading. There are communities in several of the largest ban happy instances dedicated to find the worst shit people say then circlejerking over what an idiotic take it was. People get amped up, go there and can’t help but argue and they get banned.

    There do be some ptb, though.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (9 children)
  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    !fuck_ai@lemmy.world had some examples of those in the past IIRC, there were a few threads on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com about it

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    You must be againt meanwhileongrad too in that case right?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    People from !fuck_ai@lemmy.world brigading or the examples are posted there?

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    FuckAI has been attacking users of DB0 for a while now, even since one of their most aggressive members was banned for starting fights.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    lol

    the ban happy instances brigading communities

    which ones

    the one on lemmy.world

    lmao even

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