A meme counter-arguing the claim "Without a profit motive, no one would be productive!" by showing examples of unpaid productivity: Wikipedia, complex Minecraft builds, open-source code, and volunteer firefighters.
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[–] 6 points 7 months ago (81 children)

Society would collapse.
While working out of enjoyment instead of necessity is a noble and good goal. There are jobs that no one enjoys. Money can be used as an incentive to motivate people to work on jobs that aren't that enjoyable, but still necessary.

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  • [–] 28 points 7 months ago (31 children)

    Which jobs? Most of the time there are people enjoying something you wouldn't expect

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago

    I was also thinking that. As an example, retail work seems to me to be a kind of hell I don't think I'd want to endure. But I know people that really enjoy it. So it's probably true of any job you might think is only done by those that are forced to.

    I think, if AI and robotics replace most jobs. After some years of pain when capitalists enjoy the infinite money glitch they've discovered, there will either be a revolution or a natural coming to understand that things need to work differently.

    Now, understand this would only work if the vast majority of work could be done via automation. In this case the vast majority of people would be able to pursue what they enjoy, a bit like the star trek anti-economy. If all remaining required jobs were no longer filled by those that volunteered to do them, there would be some kind of draft (think like jury duty), where people able to do a job have a chance to be called in to do it for a few months then released back to pursue their own interests.

    I've always seen capitalism as the carrot on a stick we need, when we need human productivity from the vast majority of people. If that's no longer the case, it's not a suitable solution and all the ideas like universal basic income are just stopgap measures to try to eke a bit more time out of the capitalist system that has already run past the point where we can keep enough people usefully employed to make it work. That's almost certainly the reason we're seeing the huge wealth disparity that increases. As the productivity per person goes up, all the increased value only ever rises to the top.

    Bit of a mini rant there, sorry about that.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (21 children)

    Some yeah, but undoubtedly not enough to keep it working. For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal. Of course these jobs should be fully operated by machines. Or any assistant jobs in manufacturing or jobs that operate in shifts.

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  • [+] 19 points 7 months ago (10 children)
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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I think that mostly happens because it's a hard job and because people need money to live. If they didn't they wouldn't need more pay

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    If it's so enjoyable, why don't they do it as a hobby and have a different paying job?

    To be clear, I think the answer is obviously that, to most people, it's not that enjoyable.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Because, I don't know if you're noticed, having a paying job is exhausting. The world setup in such a way that for a normal person, getting money means someone will suck every bit of life of you.
    That's, pardon the not nice metaphor, the difference between night of passionate sex and selling your ass so your pimp doesn't beat you up. Both activities can be reduced to physical aspects, but not a lot of people will ask why one is desirable and the other is less so.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    If you agree most people need to be paid to do work, then we have no disagreement on the topic at hand, so there is no need to argue at all.

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal

    Ehhh I bet you'd be wrong. Only anecdotal obviously, but at practice and games for the kids, a lot of dads just chat when there isnt much going on. A couple of them work for the local garbage company. One of them commented that he doesnt know how I stay inside and work all day, he really enjoys being outside with the trucks in the morning, then enjoying the afternoon outside with the kids. Another one is a mechanic for them, he always thought the trucks were cool, and he still enjoys working on them (though he will 100% tell you, in great detail, which manufacturers suck for various parts). Haven't talked much with the last one about work, I think he is the only one just straight up doing it for money though.

    And who knows, maybe the guy who likes being outside says that to be positive about his choices in life, but I see him at the park with the kids a lot, I've run into him heading out to the trails on his mountain bike, etc, so I believe him that he's perfectly happy doing it.

    Automation for unwanted tasks is great though, I agree, and where automation should be focused.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Tbh I'd kind of trust them more. Even if they got off thinking of my feet later (which, who cares, have at it), they are going to put a lot more effort and get a lot more knowledge than someone just doing it for the high billing rate, dont you think? And probably care more about the quality of my arch than the guy writing a prescription for orthotics because the manufacturer just bought him a nice dinner.

    Just because they are pervs doesnt mean they'd be bad at it, I'd say they'd be even better at it than most. Wouldn't you think?

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Oh I dunno, people are still inclined to uh probably murder and/or rape people for fun, steal things, commit any other unlawful acts society may deem against the law that doesn't involve monetary situation. I understand money is the root of all evil but some people are evil just because.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago*

    I build rockets that go on satellites and scientific missions. I enjoy my job; I find it extremely interesting and often quite fulfilling. In the grand scheme of things, I really wouldn't change much. But like my boss said on the first day of the job, "This job is awesome, but it's not worth doing for free." If you told me I could still enjoy the same level of comfort at home that my job affords me, but I wouldn't be paid, I would quit. I'd rather be at home reading, spending time with my family, playing around with my hobbies, etc.

    My wife is a nurse. She loves her job, but she wouldn't do it for free either. Her love for the job prevents her from quitting when she's abused by the public for 12 hours, the pay makes her come in.

    Some people are motivated by enjoyment alone to do jobs for free, but many are not. Or the thing they love doesn't help society in a meaningful way. Or they just don't want their hobby to turn into a job. I don't think there's a big enough overlap to have a functioning society.

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not saying you're wrong. But you realise how that reads right? It sounds like you're saying we should keep a boot on the neck of "the little people" so the rest of us can have a good life.

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  • [–] [S] 15 points 7 months ago* (44 children)

    Living in a nice society is all the motivation people need. I hate doing dishes, but I do them because I hate living without clean dishes even more. Everyone understands sometimes we gotta do stuff we don't like doing for a greater good. Acting like we need a wageslave class to do menial tasks otherwise we'd just let our world collapse is insulting our collective intelligence. We can share the burden.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (7 children)

    I'm actually very familiar with the idea of the tragedy of the commons.

    Rather than re-cover well tread ground, I hope that you don't mind if I quote from a relevant section of an Anarchist FAQ, and I encourage you to check the link I shared, as it goes into far more detail:

    In reality, the "tragedy of the commons" comes about only after wealth and private property, backed by the state, starts to eat into and destroy communal life. This is well indicated by the fact that commons existed for thousands of years and only disappeared after the rise of capitalism -- and the powerful central state it requires -- had eroded communal values and traditions. Without the influence of wealth concentrations and the state, people get together and come to agreements over how to use communal resources and have been doing so for millennia. That was how the commons were successfully managed before the wealthy sought to increase their holdings and deny the poor access to land in order to make them fully dependent on the power and whims of the owning class.

    [...]

    In fact, communal ownership produces a strong incentive to protect such resources for people are aware that their offspring will need them and so be inclined to look after them. By having more resources available, they would be able to resist the pressures of short-termism and so resist maximising current production without regard for the future. Capitalist owners have the opposite incentive... unless they maximise short-term profits then they will not be around in the long-term (so if wood means more profits than centuries-old forests then the trees will be chopped down). By combining common ownership with decentralised and federated communal self-management, anarchism will be more than able to manage resources effectively, avoiding the pitfalls of both privatisation and nationalisation.

    If you want a modern, real-world example of this which you may have actually experienced yourself, look no further than this medium we are using to communicate. The Internet is a great example. The Internet was a fantastic common space lovingly maintained and curated by individuals, with services and content provided freely. Corporations encircled it, and turned it into the torment nexus we have today. It wasn't because of us, collectively, that spoiled the commons of the Internet - it was capitalism itself.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    It's not fear of repercussions; it's social glue. Crime is much more common in cities, out of proportion with how many people there are, because people who are willing to commit crime are not willing to commit it against people they know personally. Urbanisation allows depersonalisation allows bad behaviour.

    It also allows effects to be transmitted that are simply way less direct than you have any hope of instinct being able to reckon with. Like, you can work out that tossing shit out of your window will piss off your neighbour, but the knock-on-effects of what you do can be harder to figure out than that. Did you buy a little bit more of anything at the start of COVID, "just in case"?

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I'm not suggesting that we just leave everything to chance and just hope society maintains itself, I'm saying that we can structure society in a way that everything that needs to get done still gets done without the profit motive, because everyone inherently understands that if we evenly and fairly divide up the work that needs to get done, that they're doing their part to live in a better world - does that make sense?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago

    I don't think we need to fully rely on altruism - humans can be selfish and we need to take that into account, and even make use of that tendency for us to want to feather our nests.

    I believe that we can create an awesome society based on anarchist principles - freedom, liberty, bottom-up structures, socialized and democratized control of the means of production, and so on. If you're interested in learning more, I'd recommend the Q&Anarchy video series by Thought Slime, and/or an anarchist FAQ if you're more of a reader.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (22 children)

    Living in a nice society is all the motivation people need.

    You might want to read up on the bystander effect. You do the dishes because no-one else is going to do it. But as soon as there are others who can do the job people will just stand around and let other die before they put in the effort.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 7 months ago (20 children)

    Don't you think there is some way we could structure society to counteract that without creating an underclass of wage slavery?

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 7 months ago* (8 children)

    Do you think the capitalistic system is going to just pay people fairly out of the goodness of the hearts of the ruling class?

    How can people be paid the value of their labor while still generating profit? Profit is, by definition, the extraction of surplus labor value. Under capitalism, inherently and definitionally, no member of the working class is ever paid fairly.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (5 children)

    The problem with labour hours is that it doesn't compensate for more (or less) hard or unpleasant work.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    Yes, that's true, I suppose a time-and-a-half system or similar could be used for dangerous or unpleasant work. Good point!

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    Untill you realize that there are a lot of kinds of work and solutions them into three groups is nooit fair to a lot of them either. You can keep cutting it up in smaller equivalents, but in the end what you'll have is basically money.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago* (2 children)

    That's fine if you believe that. I don't really believe that we need money, but as long as the means of production remain socialized, private profit remains impossible, unjustifiable heirarchies are dismantled, and decisions are made through direct democracy and consensus decision making, there's a solid basis for a functioning anarchist society.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not a communist so i don't necessarily see a problem with private property, as long as there is a limit on the accumulation of it and a stop on avoiding responsibility for a companies actions.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago

    Well, firstly, the abolition of private ownership of the means of production is socialist, not necessarily communist.

    Concentration of power happens because of private ownership of the means of production. If you own a factory, you get the profits of that factory. As you gain more profits, you can invest in more factories, and get more profit. If you have a system where money is power and money can be used to generate more money, you end up with fascism.

    Reforms are all well and good, but they will be reversed as soon as the wealthy regain a grasp of power. Look at the history of social democracy in Europe and the US for examples of this.

    How does capitalism inevitably lead to fascism?

    Basically, the issue with capitalism is that the more wealth you have, the easier it is for you to make more money. And since money can be used to buy goods, services and influence, there is always a way to use money to gain more political and social power. With that political and social power, you can push society and the legal system in the direction you want to go. So you can use your wealth to gain power, and then you can use your power to change laws and society so that you can make even more wealth and power. It’s a positive feedback loop.

    Obviously, though, if the billionaires and ruling class are accumulating more and more of our society’s wealth, that inevitably means that there’s less for everyone else to go around - therefore, working class people feel poorer and poorer. Meanwhile, the economy is going absolutely great for rich people, so inflation continues to go up - everything gets more expensive, but wages don’t increase. The wealthy just keep more and more of the wealth for themselves. To accumulate more and more wealth, they change the laws so that they can avoid paying taxes, so public services collapse. Politicians are lobbied to ensure that public funds are diverted away from where it is most needed - housing, healthcare, transportation, infrastructure - and instead into industries where their class interests most benefit from it, such as weapons manufacturing and extractive industries such as fossil fuels and mining.

    The working class are bound to notice that their lives are getting shittier and shittier, and if that situation is left unchecked, the working class would realize that the ruling class are fucking them over, rise up, and overthrow their rulers. Obviously, the ruling class need to do something about this, but there’s no solution that the ruling class can offer. They’re causing all of the problems, to fix them they’d have to give up some of their wealth and power - and that’s not something they’re going to do. So they need to find someone else to blame the problems we have in society on. Unfortunately, though, no matter who they blame the problems on, and no matter what they do to “fix” it, the issue will continue to persist, because the material conditions underlying the issues are, very intentionally, never addressed.

    So, the conundrum returns: The ruling class said that minority A caused all of the problems, minority A is persecuted and oppressed, but society doesn’t actually get any better. Either the problem wasn’t minority A, or minority A just hasn’t been oppressed enough yet. So the ruling class can either escalate the oppression, or they can shift the focus to another minority group. The division continues to escalate in terms of how vitriolic and extreme it is, and it also continues to divide the working class into smaller and smaller groups.

    To get the working class to buy into this hateful message, they need to take advantage of our worst instincts, and one of those instincts is the in-group bias. The majority are manipulated into being suspicious, then intolerant, then hateful, then violent, then genocidal, towards whatever the targeted minority of the day is. Anything that can be used to divide the working class - sexuality, nationality, immigration status, ethnicity, religion, sex, gender identity, age, all of these will be used as wedges to keep the working class split apart and not working together, because they know that if the working class actually unite against them, they are completely and truly fucked.

    That’s exactly how fascism manifests. It’s because it’s possible for people to accumulate power through wealth. This is why capitalism must be abolished. If we do not abolish capitalism, fascism will always return. It’s just a matter of time.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    I believe that there's a way we can fairly share out all the shitty work among everyone, rather than a few at the top who do no work and exploit everyone, and a lot of people at the bottom who do all of the dirty work.

    We don't need to automate everything, we just need a fair system to distribute the work evenly. We have the technology. We can do it. The reason we haven't is because those in power benefit too much from the current system.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    I don't think I can see a way to actually accomplish that without still ending up with negative outcomes.

    Take for example a surgeon, one who is a specialist who's time is 100% occupied saving people. Does he get taken away from that to do his time as a garbage collector? Do you tell the patient "sorry, you are going to die. You could have been saved, but we needed your surgeon to go pick up garbage.", or do you have an exemption list?

    And if there's an exemption list, you will never convince me that people wouldn't start abusing who is and isn't on that list. You arrive right back to having a class society.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    If you schedule that surgeon for garbage duty there won't always be another surgeon available, so you're basically telling the patient they have to wait to get surgery because the surgeon is on garbage duty.

    Surgeons take time off work and people don’t die because of it.

    Actually this does happen. The workload for most surgeons is maxxed out to the point where taking less time off would cause more deaths because of errors due to exhaustion.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 7 months ago

    This is a really silly discussion at this point, so I'm just going to leave it here. If you truly think that people would die just because surgeons have to do a few hours of chores every week, I'm not going to try and change your mind on that. Have a great day, much love, solidarity forever!

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    That's absolutely not what bystander effect is, not even close. It has also nothing to do with the issue at hand. Bystander effect caused not by not willing to put an effort, it's incredibly complicated, layered, and not exactly explained, but probably the only thing we know about it for sure is that it's not because people are lazy

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (7 children)

    Sure is a good thing doing this dishes is the most complicated and least-pleasant thing people can do...

    Who's gonna volunteer to go through years of training specializing in commercial diving in wastewater to treatment plants for free?

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    "Who's gonna do mindbraking soulcrushing jobs for days without a break?" Nobody, that's not a job that has to be done this way. "But if we stop orphan crushing machine, what will crush all the orphans?"
    When you're imagining the worst parts of the worst jobs, remember that the reason those jobs have worst parts is because the main incentive of every job is to have the profit of a job as high as possible, and to exploit the workers. Yeah, some jobs are hard, some are complicated, some are dirty, some are all three. But all that is something people can and regularly enjoy. People don't enjoy when it's degrading, when it's soulcrushing for no reason, when there is obvious injustice. And it has nothing to do with jobs

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 7 months ago* (4 children)

    Someone who wants to live a life of luxury and comfort in a world with wastewater treatment plants, knowing that everyone else is also pitching in and doing their part.

    Someone who wants to live in a world without billionaire pedophiles in power doing nothing but hoarding all of the wealth and abusing women and children.

    Someone who cares about the wellbeing of their community and is motivated by that, rather than by selfish greed.

    In other words, anyone. Everyone.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    This is idealistic to the point of parody.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 7 months ago

    These are all real things. A better world is possible. It is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism, but remember that incredible changes that would have seemed impossible have happened before and will happen again.

    If you told a pioneer in the Virginia company back in 1607 that black women would be given rights and the abililty to vote to elect their leaders, they'd probably burn you as a witch.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Indigenous peoples figured this shit out before centralized governments and computers, I'm sure we can think of something.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    But those were significantly smaller groups of people with significantly worse quality of life.
    In addition the ones that got bigger naturally evolved centralized governing structures. Even before that all the groups had leaders or some group(elders) making decisions that can effect the whole group.

    Cleaning a outhouse after 50 people from time to time, isn't that big of an issue and can be done just for the good of the whole group. It can be easily done in rotation or a group just gets together in an afternoon and digs a new one.

    Doing the same after 100 000 up to 1 000 000+ people is in orders of magnitude more difficult and time consuming.

    Same applies to any governing structure. Even the idea OP brought up needs a governing body of some sort to allocate resources and work plans.

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