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[–] 6 points 7 months ago* (57 children)

how else are you suppose to select school board members? should they be appointed by the town/county or something?

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    In a sane world, by ability and competence

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (3 children)

    How do you assess that exactly? What are the qualifications or objective measurements of competence as a school board member?

    And furthermore, according to whom? your personal assessment in particular?

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    There isn't a single right answer to that and I'm not going to suggest there is.

    How any organisation operates, be that public or private, is down to the culture of the organisation, and culture comes from people, process, motivation, legislation, and a whole bunch of factors.

    If an organisation has a clear mission, is held organisationally accountable in appropriate ways to that mission and makes people feel professionally enriched and valuable, it will attract competent people. And importantly, an organisation full of competent and principled individuals will attract other competent individuals.

    On the flip side, if an organisation is subject to decades of mismanagement, has very poor oversight, doesn't reward people for being good at their jobs and in fact rewards the wrong behaviours then exactly the opposite will happen. People who are competent at what they do will either leave or be crushed down, while those who know how to play the bootlicking game will be raised up, and this type of organisation again becomes self-perpetuating.

    None of this happens overnight, in either direction. Failure can take years or decades, and so can the reverse.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago*

    The issue is that it's self-referential. The org itself gets to define what is good management or bad. Outsides parties, have no say.

    And that's how local school boars work. They are local politics and they have very little external oversight, if any at all. Sort of criminal acts, like a board member embezzling school funds, that violate state law, there isn't really much criteria over which they can be held accountable, other than winning votes from their local voters.

    I live in Boston. I can harp all I want about a local school board in TN, but the only power I have is over my own local school board here, where I can vote. And man the candidates we have... are usually a mix of nutbags and slightly less nutbags. School board elections tend to attract weirdos more than sensible people, IME.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (47 children)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (46 children)

    who judges that merit? how is it defined?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (3 children)

    In typical fediverse fashion, the users responding to you have no answer so they get stuck on semantics and counter arguing your question rather than the intent.

    I genuinely would like a well thought out response to this too. Would merit be someone with many years of teaching experience? Maybe school administration?

    Do those things make that person capable of performing board responsibilities? Do those things preclude them from making creepy remarks (I highly suspect they don't)

    For the record, the dude here has been on the board for 12 years, which should be more than enough time to learn the necessary skill set to do the job. Doesn't make him less creepy though.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Perhaps the argument that it isn't possible to assess merit for a job position is so far outside the realms of reason that asking for clarification is the only way to formulate an answer.

    But if you want a simple, quotable answer for the obvious question as it is written, here you go:

    • Asses the criteria for which a job would be considered to be successfully performed.
    • Check if historical evidence/experience/current skill/expected future growth gives indication that the candidate could meet or exceed those criteria.
    • Rank the candidates, based on how well they match to the success criteria.
    • ???
    • Profit?

    It's tremendously disappointing to see people act like assessing fitness for a role isn't a thing that has been going on since the dawn of civilisation.

    Get a grip.


    Now, if you want argue that this isn't how things are currently done ? I’m right there with you.

    The system is a shambolic remnant of what it should be ? couldn't agree more.

    A lot of it is probably by design ? sure, i'm down for that perspective.

    But "It isn't possible to assess merit for a job role", is a troll at best or extreme ignorance at worst.

    If people weren't asking "are you sure that this is what you meant?" i'd be worried for the state of basic reasoning.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Since you went generic instead of specific to the circumstance: this man has 12 years experience as a board member. Would he not have the qualifications to perform the job?

    It's not like he did this in his first year, or even first few years... At least not that we know of.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago*

    The answer is generic ....which means it can be applied to the specific circumstance.

    Here is an example, as the answer to your question :

    this man has 12 years experience as a board member. Would he not have the qualifications to perform the job?

    Going by the example evaluation steps i provided, he would have the qualifications to perform the job , if:

    • The success criteria for the position were known
    • His history/skillset/experience/future prospects were likely to meet or exceed those criteria


    If you want to know if he's the most qualified for the job you also need to:

    • Rank all the candidates, based on how well they match to the success criteria.


    and he would need to be at the top of the rankings.

    If you're going to ask who does these evaluations in the specific example being talked about, it would be the voters, perhaps a final approval board as well, if one exists in these scenarios.

    Outside of that example, it can vary.


    I shouldn't have to but I’m going to point out that i said this is a simple quotable answer, not that it was the only answer, or even the best answer.

    My argument has always been that evaluation of fitness for a role isn't impossible. Not that there is a perfect method, nor that these methods are being used competently or at all. Just that they do exist.

    As for personal opinion, this guy sounds like an asshole, i personally know lots of incompetent people in positions they neither earned nor are qualified for, I’m not saying the current state of things is good, because i don't think it is.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (7 children)

    I hear schools are pretty good at giving people these funny things called "tests" to assess an individual's knowledge on a certain subject. Not only are schools good at testing, I hear there is a WHOLE INDUSTRY built on creating and running them.

    You know, they could give those to other people too I'll bet! In fact, I'll bet you can use them to qualify doctors, lawyers, barbers, auto mechanics and all sorts of people!

    Oh wait, these are politicians. We shouldn't do that to them. I don't know why, but it just feels wrong. Never mind.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Absolutely! It's just a complete coincidence that the people who the school system is failing are barred from fixing it because in order to pass the test you have to have done well in school. It makes perfect sense.

    It's not like the US has a history of refusing to educate people, and then refusing to let them participate in civic matters by gating that access behind tests. The US certainly has never, say, made passing a test a requirement to vote to disenfranchise people.

    And we all know that, of course, that any test would be super effective at preventing the abuse the above article is about. You just put the question "are you sexually attracted to children," on the test. That way you'd keep out creeps. And no one would ever lie on a test. That'd be ridiculous.

    I don't know why people are disagreeing. It's a perfect system!

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    How about a polygraph test/examination. I understand they are known to be inaccurate sometimes. I doubt someone could suppress their deeply held lifelong urges enough to fool one with a question about their sexual desires.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Setting aside the fact that polygraphs are pseudoscience mumbo jumbo that don't work in any meaningful capacity, and the results of which are really just the vibes of the person running it (with all of their bigotry/biases on full display.)

    The bigger issue is that there are over thirteen thousand school districts in the US. If each school board is four people on average, that's over fifty thousand people you'd have to do polygraphs for. And that's if all you wanted to do was school boards.

    Trying to get all of those people polygraphs would be an absolute logistical nightmare. There aren't that many polygraphers out there.

    And we shouldn't be legitimizing polygraphs anyway. They have time and time again been shown to be absolute bunk, and to discriminate against people with issues like anxiety (or really, anyone who gets agitated when you accuse them of something). The only people who can reliably pass polygraphs are sociopaths, which feels like the opposite of what you want to be selecting for here.

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  • [–] -2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    Shhhh, don't overload them with reason, it's rare to see this kind of naivete in it's natural form.

    edit: some salty salty lurkers around today, come on in, the waters fine, i'm sure you have coherent arguments to add.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (30 children)

    Just to be clear, you're arguing that merit/competence can't be accurately judged and therefore should be ignored in favour of popularity ?

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (29 children)

    it can't be judged without well-defined criteria, no.

    seriously, what is the qualification or criteria for being a good school board member? tell me. I'd like to know.

    because as far as I am aware, there absolutely is none. anyone can run for school board.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    It's not an argument. It's a fact.

    My local school board anyone can run. The only requirement is you are a resident of the district you represent, and you are over 18, and you are a registered voter. That's literally it. There are no other requirements, qualifications, or criteria for running for school board.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (4 children)

    It’s not an argument. It’s a fact.

    That seems definitive, good to have a rock solid source.

    My local school board anyone can run. The only requirement is you are a resident of the district you represent, and you are over 18, and you are a registered voter. That’s literally it. There are no other requirements, qualifications, or criteria for running for school board.

    Useful information , eligibility to run is still not the full criteria for how someone is evaluated for a position though.

    Technically, i suppose it could be considered an initial screening, so you're not entirely incorrect, just incorrect that it's the only evaluation mechanism.

    If it were , there'd be no need for votes, first person to apply and be eligible would automatically get the job.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    I have no idea what you are saying now. You're saying, you should dictatorially be given the power to appoint school board members, and you'd do so solely on a first come, first given, basis?

    OK, so you are saying you want to be a dictator of school board members, because you are the one who should have sole authority in this area. And you would not judge people based on qualifications or merit?

    OK.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 7 months ago (21 children)

    You should ask people in a professional setting that work with schools this instead of demanding the answers from the black box of the internet.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    any elected position is a popularity contest.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    popularity as the only criteria or as one of many criteria ?

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Dude, I am gonna ask that you look at your actions here cause... Let's be honest the frog is not a reasonable person.

    Do you expect to find a nuanced new way to handle elections of the school board?
    Or perhaps, do you honestly expect this troll to say something that changes the whole context of this conversation or make you feel that they have changed in some dramatic way?

    I say if you look at it, you are legitimizing a pointless conversation where they weaponize apathy and make it look valuable by comparison to complex issues on a topic you aren't knowledgeable enough in to argue against, "no u!"

    They never expected an authority figure on it and wouldnt accept one either. They just want your rage and your attention. They aren't fun enough to play with for you to give either.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    meh, i was hoping it might be a bit more fun later on but it's been lacklustre so far.

    You can't reason someone out of a position they've not reasoned themselves in to but it's sometimes interesting to see if they genuinely believe the positions they tout and hear how they got there.

    Do you expect to find a nuanced new way to handle elections of the school board?

    There are easily understood ways of measuring fitness for a position, an easy answer to the actual question of how evaluations could be possible is to use the criteria for what would be considered a successful run as a school board member, historically and ideally.

    Use those criteria to evaluate who has a track record of achieving these things, or the potential/skills to go on to achieve these things during the allotted time.

    Does this happen? rarely. Could it potentially work, absolutely.

    Personal likeability/popularity is probably a part of those criteria (as with any position involving any politics) but it's not the only one.

    Or perhaps, do you honestly expect this troll to say something that changes the whole context of this conversation or make you feel that they have changed in some dramatic way?

    Not at all, there's nothing to indicate any kind of space for an adjustment in their view, if they even have an actual perspective beyond trolling.

    I say if you look at it, you are legitimizing a pointless conversation where they weaponize apathy and make it look valuable by comparison to complex issues on a topic you aren’t knowledgeable enough in to argue against, “no u!”

    I'm not sure random internet replies legitimise clear bad-faith troll takes.

    As i said, my point here wasn't really to change minds it was more interest in the mindset and reasoning skills of someone who'd post something like that, think of it as internet anthropology.

    They never expected an authority figure on it and wouldnt accept one either. They just want your rage and your attention. They aren’t fun enough to play with for you to give either.

    I don't really have any rage, it's like being angry at a chihuahua for barking.

    I'm not expecting good-faith or well reasoned arguments, so I’m not disappointed or angry when they don't appear.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    So you waste your time for the sake of it? I'd say something about not being able to reason someone out of a position they didnt use reason to get into in the first place but I guess its repetitive.

    You can spend your time as you want but the trolls do build their world by the responses of others. It makes them more real and let's useless conversation bog down better ones. They are seeking answers they know they won't get to make it seem like their world is more figured out for waving away other thoughts.

    I dont know. I dont get any joy out of arguing the minutia of nonsense. It feels like it just fills my own head with it and doesnt make me more empathetic to understand that. Personally I am upset to find that someone doesnt want to talk but use me as a springboard for their own stuff but oh well.

    Glad you are ok with it I guess.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    So you waste your time for the sake of it? I’d say something about not being able to reason someone out of a position they didnt use reason to get into in the first place but I guess its repetitive.

    I stated exactly what my reasons are for engaging,

    I think the word you are looking for is recursive, i could be wrong though.

    You can spend your time as you want but the trolls do build their world by the responses of others. It makes them more real and let’s useless conversation bog down better ones. They are seeking answers they know they won’t get to make it seem like their world is more figured out for waving away other thoughts.

    Genuine question, why would i care how they build their world ?

    If they want to build a mental echochamber, who am i to deny them their delusions ?

    The argument about bogging up otherwise useful conversations has merit though, I’ll consider that going forward.

    Though, my side of the argument is still written as a good faith reply so there might be benefit in seeing actual replies, if only from one side...hmm..i'll think on this.

    I dont know. I dont get any joy out of arguing the minutia of nonsense. It feels like it just fills my own head with it and doesnt make me more empathetic to understand that.

    It's not really joy and i'm not really arguing the minutia expecting coherent replies, as i said it's interesting to me to try and understand different kinds of people, it helps me better communicate in situations where the other party is conversing in good faith.

    I'm not really looking to build empathy for that either, perhaps some pity in some really tragic cases where you can see they are truly struggling, but those aren't usually trolls, just people struggling with people things.

    A lot of the time the useful bits aren't in the bad faith nonsense itself but how it's structured, the way in which the "logical" pivots occur, the word choice or something else that isn't the actual content itself.

    I get that it might not be like that for everyone.

    Personally I am upset to find that someone doesnt want to talk but use me as a springboard for their own stuff but oh well.

    I think we might have fundamentally different perspectives on what a conversation can be, but in this case I wasn't expecting genuine engagement, so I’m not upset or disappointed to find out there wasn't any.

    I'm also not worried about them being upset by my approach, because bad-faith trolls deserve no worry.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I think to a degree you can see our different styles in just our replies itself, I do care about conversation. I like it and think it's best when it shares information or opinion about people who care to do so. I also dont think to think I can control it but add my opinion so it is seen and move on when it is obviously not productive.

    Practical but aware that I am not infinite. Or maybe I am just more tired than other people.

    And I dunno I care about others. I think frustrated yipping at each other isn't fun empatheticly but I could be wrong about it. If you find interest in this conversation I am not meaning to stop you just wanted to know you were not stuck in that recursive loop (that was the word, thank you) against your own better judgement.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I think to a degree you can see our different styles in just our replies itself, I do care about conversation. I like it and think it’s best when it shares information or opinion about people who care to do so. I also dont think to think I can control it but add my opinion so it is seen and move on when it is obviously not productive.

    I can see the difference in style but i think it's also a difference in perspective. For me, most interactions have useful information in them, even the ones like we've been talking about. There is a range of information that you can only get (or is more prevalent in) interactions that aren't a standard sharing of ideas or opinions, for me at least.

    As i said, i do understand this is not the same for everyone.

    And I dunno I care about others. I think frustrated yipping at each other isn’t fun empatheticly but I could be wrong about it. If you find interest in this conversation I am not meaning to stop you just wanted to know you were not stuck in that recursive loop (that was the word, thank you) against your own better judgement.

    I will admit that my empathy seems to be non-standard, it's not like i don't have any but the situations in which it applies seem to differ from what i hear from others.

    When i said fun in that initial reply, what i really mean was interest, in a sense that new information/perspectives are enjoyable because of the influx of new information.

    Having to work through and around the yipping from one side is sometimes a requirement to get to the interesting bits, it's not fun, but it is what it is.

    i appreciate the heads up though, i'm not immune to getting sucked past the point of interest sometimes.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (9 children)

    No u!

    Seriously, do you even vote in your local school board elections? I do. If so, what criteria do you use? I vote according to the educational platform they propose.

    None of that has anything to do with merit of qualifications that are hypothetically being raised as criteria for evaluating a school board member's performance or competency.

    It's not demanding answers, it's pointing out the typical lemmy/reddit hypocracy of sitting on a illusory high horse, getting outraged, and refusing to actually deal with the problem on your local level where you do have the ability to make a difference.

    or if you want to be really extreme, you could move to this district in TN and run for school board yourself.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (7 children)

    You do nothing but try to find things to get offended about.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago (6 children)

    Says the person that hunted down one of my other comments after I didnt agree with their rude take.

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  • [+] 0 points 7 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] [S] 0 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    No I just disagree with you and others. It happens from time to time. Its called having an opinion. Its a shocking revelation, I know.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    You disagree that it's ok to ask why representatives don't represent the population? Got it.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    Why lie when we are the only 2 people that will ever see these comments? That isn't where you started and not alone in the things you have said that can be disagreed with.

    Its pretty silly.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    You attacked me for noticing that every single one of their politicians was morbidly obese. No? Whom is lying now?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    So your general point is a concern. Who can you trust to make the judgement. But that doesn't mean you should just toss up your hands either. As was pointed out, tests of various sorts could be done and the results presented to the voters so that they have more to go on than the number of lawn signd they have seen for a person. The write ups in the guides are nearly pointless. They can say anything they want in there. For a person running for reelection, their voting record would be nice to give voters easy access to. There are lots of ways to present the voters with objective information so that they can choose based on thier preferences. But none of that happens today.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    it's a democratically elected position.

    the judgement is the judgement voters of that district.

    do you vote in your own local school board elections? I do, and yeah you vote based on the person's policy stated positions. however, just because I do that, doesn't mean lots of candidates I don't vote for, don't get elected and push policies I don't agree with... because they get more votes than the candidates I vote for did.

    Also, why do you assume that the voters in this school district, don't want this guy? He may very well be who they think is best for the job. If you don't live in this district... you don't get to vote for the school board there.

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  • As a voter, I have found that there is a significant lacking of useful information to make a decision on. I put in a fair bit of effort and often feel like I have nowhere near enough. And that is how the politicians want it. That way the majority of voters to have very little information of substance to go on. That way they can win on charisma. And they don't have to do anything positive for the voters to move up. They just have to please the political powers in the area to get endorsements, campaign help, and straight up donations so they can move to the next level. But when it comes to school boards. Most won't move to the next level. But they take advantage of the way the system is set up to get elected. They probably even believe that their opinions are the will of the voter, when the voter barely knows anything about their real opinions.

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