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[+] -37 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (36 children)

The first batches of mRNA vaccines were terrible. One of my friends had his skin start peeling after the first shot. Two others died within a day from the third shot. One of them was an athlete who swam daily. In my country, they were pushed on everyone, babies and pregnant women, some of whom later had abortions. But I guess no one will ever admit any mistakes. it's easier to sow division among people than to seriously look into potential side effects.

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  • [–] 49 points 7 months ago (14 children)

    I knew an athlete who had an mRNA vaccine and he died in a car accident two days afterwards. This was a very fit and healthy person who ran daily.

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  • [+] -30 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    Hilarious, did you come up with this yourself, using your own talent?

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  • [–] 31 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    Yeah I did, kinda like how only twelve people came up with 90% of the anti vax bullshit that got spread around during COVID.

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  • [+] -17 points 7 months ago* (11 children)

    I'm not trying to defend anti-vax views, but to critique the culture of denial. Clearly, it's difficult for many to discuss the negative aspects without dismissal, likely due to the cognitive dissonance they experience.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Probably more to do with the fact that there is, at most, a tiny grain of truth at the core, but it's wrapped in a mountain of bullshit.

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  • [+] -6 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Could be, but what interest would a regular person have in making things up? The only explanation I can think of is state actors, but even then, there must be something real to hold onto, even if it's a 1 in million chance. The fact that everyone else is being dismissed makes it feel like a cult. I hate that criticizing Pfizer and Moderna has become associated with a political view, especially since these companies were involved in huge fraud scandals before.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Cue the classic Arthur meme, "do you really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?"

    How about for money? How many grifters pushed their own protective supplements? You think pharma maybe would pay some astroturfers to push the ivermectin that didn't do dick for anyone that didn't have worms already because it's fucking dewormer? How many antivaxxers made up bullshit about it just like they do every other vaccine? How many wealthy people down played everything and helped push lies so their workers would get the fuck back in the office/factory? How many people just said some stupid shit and doubled down to protect their ego when called out?

    Like here's the real issue. You've put no real thought at all into why someone might lie about it, as evidenced by the fact that you can only conceive of it being state actors while I came up with all those people incentivized to lie off the top of my head. And then, after putting no real effort into reflection or anything, you look around at all the people who can come up with reasons you're wrong and claim it feels like a cult.

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  • [+] -7 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    I'm not talking about people who had a "cure" but about those who shared their experiences openly while being censored and dismissed. People who are not part of a campaign. You assume a lot, and the way you associate everything with anti-vaxxers only shows how much governments have turned this into a political issue. If I say someone close to me had side effects after the vaccine, suddenly I'm assumed to also drink bleach and take dewormers. This is exactly the kind of propaganda they push to discredit anyone who has concerns. At this point, you're basically unable to think critically or discuss the negative. Being part of a herd also comes with some dangerous aspects.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not talking about people who had a "cure" but about those who shared their experiences openly while being censored and dismissed. People who are not part of a campaign.

    You're assuming you can tell when a stranger on the internet is part of a campaign or mistakenly parroting something from a campaign. The internet is heavily astroturfed, especially social media. Several hugely popular pieces of misinformation have been traced back to just a handful of accounts that look like and pose as regular people but, upon thorough inspection, are very clearly lying either for money or for propaganda. Those accounts lied, not got it wrong, lied, and millions of people parroted it. Many of them lied a bit themselves and framed it as something that totally happened to someone they directly know.

    You assume a lot, and the way you associate everything with anti-vaxxers only shows how much governments have turned this into a political issue.

    ...Motherfucker, it's not a politics issue, it's a science issue. Antivaxxers have REPEATEDLY shown they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. At best, they're scared of what they don't understand and make mistakes. At worst, they're grifting at the expense of people's health. Many just want to feel smart, like they're in on a secret the rest of society can't recognize, and they're willing to endanger people's health and wellbeing to get that feeling. In no case are they overall correct, even if they manage to occasionally brush against truth as they flounder. You wanted examples of why regular people might go on the internet and lie about the vaccines, and antivaxxers are a great example because everything that comes out of their mouths on that topic is either half baked or, relevant to the question at hand, an outright lie. Some of them will just make up random shit on the fly to defend their incorrect beliefs. Shit, some people are just pathological liars, and some portion of them will be antivax or whatever.

    If I say someone close to me had side effects after the vaccine, suddenly I'm assumed to also drink bleach and take dewormers.

    I don't think anyone with sense and information doubts that people experienced side effects. When I got my COVID vaccines, we had to wait a little while on site in case we had an allergic reaction or any other sort of adverse reaction. What most of the doubters don't believe is the people suggesting it's way more dangerous than anyone thought because the vast majority of the evidence is someone claiming that their cousin's uncle's dog's vet's new girlfriend he just met totally suffered life altering consequences. The vast majority is bullshit, whether the person saying it knows it or not, and the remainder is such a small portion, it most likely doesn't make a significant difference from reported results and risks.

    At this point, you're basically unable to think critically or discuss the negative. Being part of a herd also comes with some dangerous aspects.

    No, I can do that. The problem is that critical thinking leads me to the realization that there's never any fucking evidence, at all, ever. Some schmuck that may or may not be AI with a username I've never seen before can write some words on social media about a thing that totally definitely happened to someone, but that's it, that's all it is. There's never unadulterated pictures or video. No medical records from the hospital visit such a severe reaction surely must have required. No articles from a respected journalist known to thoroughly vet sources. No medical or scientific studies that hold up to thorough scrutiny. Do some people have severe negative reactions? Yeah, the manufacturers literally warn us of them. Is it the huge threat that some people made it out to be? Almost certainly not according to the available legitimate evidence.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    I just want to take a moment to recognise and respect the effort expended to so thoroughly detail the how and why of antivaxxers (anti-intellectualism in general if one reads the general context) in simple terms.

    The more people that are exposed to this kind of explained reasoning, the less people there are to be taken advantage of by these dangerous charlatans.

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  • [–] 17 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    If that's your goal, the most polite thing I can say is that maybe you should reconsider your strategy.

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  • [+] -9 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    AI chats made people feel like everyone has to agree with them, "such a great question" "good point" The internet is so dead. soon you'll only be talking to AI agents anyway, so enjoy the last bits of real people.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago

    I don't know what this has to do with anything. I love it when people disagree with me. Either they make interesting points and I have fun learning something or they post drivel and I have fun with them until I get bored. It's all upside.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago*

    Bruh I've hated you pro-disease morons long before AI existed. I don't care if "everyone agrees with me" except on topics where you're causing children to die of preventable diseases for no fucking reason.

    We had literally solved the problem of measles, and now you've brought it back out of pure foolishness. Those sick and dying children are entirely the fault of people like you.

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  • [–] 20 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I know someone who knows someone who's friend's postman had it and he grew a third arm!

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    Sources. You know. To show you're not a tool.

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  • [+] -13 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    I'm sure you can find some papers easily, I haven't looked into it in years but just from memory there are a few vectors from which problems can arise. The immune system produces antibodies and is responsible for ensuring that they are properly reactive. If this system becomes overactivated, some antibodies may slip through and target the own body, potentially leading to an autoimmune response. We also know that breastfeeding can transfer antibodies from mother to baby. Another consideration is the stability of mRNA production from fetal stem cells. In previous experiments, this process has often been unreliable or unstable. Also the virus mutates much more rapidly than many others, so priming the immune system against a specific variant may reduce its effectiveness against other variants or different viruses.

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Sorry but no, this is not how it works. You claim things, you show proof of things. I don't look it up for you. Provide sources.

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  • [–] -5 points 7 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago

    OK so... Here we are talking about myocarditis (at least in the first 2 articles listed), which is definitely not what you talked about in your first comment.

    In the article you mentioned, I quote

    “But COVID’s worse,” he added. A case of COVID-19 is about 10 times as likely to induce myocarditis as an mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccination, Wu said. That’s in addition to all the other trouble it causes.

    So the vaccine has a small chance to provoke myocarditis (with very fast recovery) and not taking the vaccine has a much higher chance of provoking the same effects plus others much worse, including death.

    Then, you list another article about possible autoimmune diseases induced by the vaccine. Again, not your intial topic. I'll quote the authors:

    Our objective is not to refute the importance of vaccines, but to raise awareness about the potential risks of COVID-19 vaccination. In fact, we believe that the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the possible risks and encourage people to get vaccinated

    Yeah. I won't go through all the list, but we get the picture. Nobody's saying to get vaccinated for fun. Every single sane person should definately be curious of mass vaccination campaigns. But it is important to carefully read studies and not jump to conclusions, be them in favour or against what we believe.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    No I can't find any papers easily on that subject. So show me.

    I bet you can't find sources at all either.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Life is full of risks. All medical procedures carry risks. The risk of having a serious side effect (like an allergic reaction) are less than .1% - that is a pretty low risk situation.

    You might experience chills, soreness at the injection site, temporary muscle pain. These mild side effects are more common - 10-30% of people may feel these.

    But, given the health risk of catching the virus. Especially now that it looks like catching covid multiple times is a bad idea. It isn't like flu, it appears that many people experience increased severity of symptoms, some people develop long covid (which is no joke), some people can develop long-term health problems that hit their respiratory system or cause long term cardiovascular problems or develop neurological problems.

    Please consider the long-term consequences of skipping vaccines.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    It seems that you are tied with a lot of very unfortunate people. It almost seems improbable.

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  • [+] -11 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Any medicine can have side effects its ridiculous that acknowledging that immediately labels you as an anti-vaxxer. This narrative is one of pharmas big successes imo.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    Nobody is saying vaccines have zero side effects. But everything has side effects, and the side effects for vaccines have been reported just like all other medications. https://www.healthline.com/health/vaccinations/side-effects-of-covid-19-vaccine#age-differences Of the more serious side effects these are mainly reported in 4-5 per one MILLION people.

    In comparison, this study https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10123459/ finds that 232,000 deaths could have been prevented AMONG the unvaccinated. This is includes people who could not take the vaccine for specific health reasons who may not have died if people who could took it.

    And they were voluntary to take despite it having big consequences for everyone else that some chose not to take them.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Double edged sword.

    If we don't act fast enough, many will die. If we acted too fast with untested vaccine, people may die. I guess will and may are very important here. Would be much preferable if we didn't suddenly discover and spread the deadly virus.

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  • [+] -8 points 7 months ago

    Yeah, I can definitely see the benefits. But completely dismissing the concerns of those who think differently doesn't feel very constructive. The pharma companies basically made billions on this with zero liability, its ridiculous.

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