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[–] 3 points 9 months ago (42 children)

Authoritarian capitalistic state?

For all the tankies disagreeing simply ask yourself two questions:

Who owns the means of production in a socialist society?

Who owns the means of production in China?

Everything else follows from there

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

    me when I do liberal reductionism and don't understand anything Lenin, Chairman Mao or Stalin wrote.

    Edit: To more properly explain.

    You rely on a crude, ahistorical definition of socialism and treats China as a static abstraction rather than a real society developing under concrete material conditions. You reduce Marxism to a legal-form checklist and ignores class power, historical development, and the dictatorship of the proletariat. This is a fundamental error.

    In Marxism, “who owns the means of production” is not a question of paper titles but of class rule. Ownership only matters insofar as it expresses which class holds political power, controls surplus, and sets the direction of development. Defining socialism as the immediate abolition of all private enterprise is not Marxism; it is utopian liberal nonsense.

    Lenin addressed this explicitly. Under proletarian rule, state capitalism is a socialist tool. His formulation is unambiguous: state capitalism under a dictatorship of the proletariat is not capitalism in the bourgeois sense but a form subordinated to socialist power and goals. The decisive issue is not whether markets or private firms exist, but which class commands them.

    In China, the commanding heights of the economy are publicly owned and planned: land (state-owned in cities, collectively owned in the countryside), finance, energy, heavy industry, transport, telecommunications, arms production, and strategic resources. These sectors form the backbone of the economy. Private capital exists, but it does not dominate accumulation or political power.

    The Chinese bourgeoisie does not rule. It has no independent state power and no ability to capture the party. Capitalists are subordinate to the Communist Party and can be regulated, expropriated, imprisoned, or eliminated when they conflict with socialist objectives. Recent crackdowns on tech monopolies, finance, real estate speculation, and billionaire figures demonstrate this class relation. In capitalist states, capital disciplines the state. In China, the state disciplines capital.

    Surplus extraction and allocation further expose the difference. Under capitalism, surplus is privately appropriated and reinvested for profit. In China, surplus (especially from state and regulated sectors) is redirected toward long-term national development: infrastructure, industrial upgrading, poverty eradication, and technological independence. The largest poverty reduction in human history did not occur through laissez-faire capitalism, but through state-directed socialist accumulation (nearly a billion people lifted from poverty).

    Chairman Mao was also clear that socialism is not a finished endpoint but a long historical process filled with contradictions. He emphasized that class struggle continues under socialism and that development occurs through uneven, conflicting processes. Socialism is transitional by definition: it emerges from capitalism, contains remnants of it, and advances toward communism through struggle and transformation. Treating socialism as a stable, contradiction-free end state is anti-Marxist.

    Calling China “authoritarian capitalism” is ridiculous. I've already dealt with the "capitalism" issue but also authoritarian is a useless modifier used by liberals to easily bundle together countries that opposed the status quo as evil and immoral. Try reading On Authority

    “Everything else follows from there” is exactly wrong. Everything follows from class power, historical conditions, and the direction of development. Your reductionist liberal framework cannot explain why China plans five-year strategies, suppresses finance capital, controls land, resists imperialism, and openly declares socialism as its goal. Marxism can however.

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  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    The mental gymnastics you need to go trough trying to defend why being capitalistic is basically anticapitalist when the ruling party has "communist" in their name is telling.

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  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (36 children)

    Good luck trying to state the obvious here, lots of tankies on lemmy.ml (as you can see from the other replies)

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  • [–] 13 points 9 months ago (34 children)

    A tankie is when people point out you don't understand what you're talking about and are just regurgitating talking points and it makes you feel bad.

    Come to China I can give you a tour I can translate so you can talk to the locals and you can see we're humans too not just some brainwashed peasant "untermensch". You chauvinist loser.

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  • [+] -8 points 9 months ago (33 children)

    When did I say chinese people arent people? Are you replying to the wrong comment? You sound like you are 14 with your reading skills and going straight to calling me a loser lol.

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (32 children)

    You are a loser. You don't view us as independent people who have our own views on our country. You ignore the fact that even western outlets report over 80% of us support the government. But none of that matters to you because we're just peasants brainwashed by the evil "authoritarians".

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Not exactly related to the main discussion, but none other than Jeffrey Epstein described the Chinese government, and Xi in particular, as peasants. Said you guys spoke in "fortune cookie language." It goes without saying that is the highest compliment to be an enemy of such people, so China is clearly doing something right.

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    China itself just like Chairman Mao is imperfect but I strongly believe the merits out way the wrongs and the real question isn't is China good or bad but by how much the good out ways the bad e.g. is it 60/40, 70/30, 80/20 etc.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    That's for Chairman Mao and I would largely agree with that however I meant more for the new China as a whole. China continues to be imperfect but as I said I believe the real debate is the semantics of how far the good outweighs the bad as opposed to are they good or bad currently.

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  • [+] -8 points 9 months ago (25 children)

    Does lemmy.ml include entirety of China? Because I was only talking about lemmy.ml. Again, you sure you replied to the right comment?

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  • [+] 16 points 9 months ago (8 children)
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  • [+] 8 points 9 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] -5 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    That makes not sense at all, people in China are diverse and numerous with many different opinions and experiences. Don't just band them together as if they are all the same.

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  • [+] 10 points 9 months ago (6 children)
  • [+] -6 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Dont move the goal post. You are trying to prove my comment somehow dehumanizes the entirety of the Chinese population, how does that make sense? When did I say or treat the WHOLE chinese population as less than human with my words?

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  • [+] 9 points 9 months ago (5 children)
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  • [+] 10 points 9 months ago* (4 children)
  • [+] -6 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    Does lemmy.ml represent the majority of the Chinese people? Do you? If you are talking statistics, that comes from the government not directly the people. And disagreeing does not dehumanize people, that is such an authoritarian view I can't even. You disagree with the majority of the western world about China, does that mean you are dehumanizing them?

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  • [+] 10 points 9 months ago* (3 children)
  • [+] -6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    That blogsite doesnt have direct links to the sources, do you?

    So you can disagree but I can't, interesting point of view.

    Mind you, you have only talked about government approval so far, not perception of the state as socialist or not. But let me entertain you and pretend that is true (even though it is absurd). Lets also pretend that disagreeing with someone (only when it is me, you can apparently) dehumanizes people. 80% of the chinese people believe the country is a socialist country, disagreeing with them constitutes disagreeing with 80% of the country (by your flawed logic), does that me I dehumanized the ENTIRETY of the chinese people?

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago*

    Lmao, reducing Jason Hickel, a world renowned economic anthropologist, to 'just a blogsite' is hilarious.

    Just a quick background from his wiki

    Jason Edward Hickel[2] (born 1982) is a Swazi economic anthropologist, academic and democratic eco-socialist.[3] He is a professor at the Institute of Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA-UAB) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona,[4] a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a visiting senior fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and was the Chair of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo.[5] He serves on the Climate and Macroeconomics Roundtable of the US National Academy of Sciences.[6]

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  • [+] 7 points 9 months ago (1 child)
  • [+] -6 points 9 months ago

    Nothing about a country with over one billion people with many different ethnicities and continent sized land is easility verifiable.

    "The views expressed in the Ash Center Policy Briefs Series are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of the John F. Kennedy School of Government or of Harvard Universi- ty" so okay, not really Havard's opinion or name behind the study

    "While no single survey can adequately address all aspects of satisfaction levels in China, this brief identifies two important yet contrasting findings." Seems your own article disapproves of being used by itself to form opinions.

    "Yet long-term, publicly-available, and nationally-representative surveys in mainland China are so rare that it is difficult to know how ordinary Chinese citizens feel about their government." Very insteresting "Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread" gotta love when your conclusion needs to mention this.

    All in all no details for the actual methodology nor about the so called private company that perfomed the survey (since the institute apparently only created the survey itself).

    Well, this is enough for me today, not gonna bother replying futher since you seem to be trying to waste my time and 'beat' me by tiring me with nonsense.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (16 children)

    You are defending and agreeing with someone calling China evil and authoritarian capitalist. He is wrong and so are you. No amount of dodging or hiding behind semantics will change the position you chose to defend and that you clearly chose to defend it for chauvinist reasons.

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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (15 children)

    You said I didnt see Chinese people as people, which I never said ever. Are you gonna retract that? Cause you are still wrong.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (14 children)

    No because even if you don't state it openly it's clearly apparent. You clearly hate China, and we're all just brainwashed serfs of the ebil gubberment.

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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago* (13 children)

    Ah okay, so the fabrications of your mind and you prejudice against me are relevant and valid points for you to criticize me. The irony of your comment isnt lost on me

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (12 children)

    The "fabrications" of you siding with someone calling China evil. China is directed by the people. Reconcile how you don't hate Chinese people for me.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago* (11 children)

    The government does not represent all of a country's people, a country can be evil without its people being evil. Example: the US

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    Over 80% of us support the government. Are we all brainwashed or are we all evil?

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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    Who published that statistic?

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  • [+] 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)
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  • [+] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    Edelman

    Page 6 US western capitalist firm and plenty of others. Again showing your ass.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Showing my ass? Western capitalist firm? Are you using google translate?

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Edelman is an american capitalist consulting firm no Chinese influence that you're so scared of (chauvinist). Showing your ass as in you are showing how uneducated you are. English obviously isn't my first language again you being a fucking chauvinist loser.

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