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[–] 59 points 9 months ago* (103 children)

Rent isn't theft. It's payment for a service. Whether or not that service is of value to you is a different story, but not everyone is interested in owning.

There are benefits to renting. You don't have to be financially responsible for repairs, you don't have to do maintenance or pay someone to do it for you, you have much less financial risk, and you can relocate much easier.

And not all landlords are rich people. I do agree that corporate ownership of residential property shouldn't be allowed, though.

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  • [–] [S] 31 points 9 months ago (25 children)

    Can you agree it's at least exploitative?

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  • [–] 31 points 9 months ago (16 children)

    It can be exploitative, but it's not automatically so. Both parties benefit from the agreement in different ways.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Just because both sides benefit doesn't mean that it's not exploitative. A slave gets the benefit of housing and food provided by their master, that doesn't mean the slave isn't exploited.

    Like slavery a landlord uses a claim to property to extract labor / wages / money out of a person that doesn't have a claim to property. That is exploitative.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    I dunno man. When we moved into our apartment we got a new water heater, new washer/dryer, new kitchen sink, and HVAC repaired within the first couple weeks. We've gotten multiple smaller things fixed as well including exterior tuck pointing to fix a leak.

    Sometimes I lament not owning, but that would have all been out of pocket if we had bought a property as is with those issues. Didn't cost us a dime.

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 9 months ago* (6 children)

    There are undeniable benefits to renting. I rent. It's still a for-profit business in the end, though, and per capitalism, they'll fuck you as hard as you let them.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago* (5 children)

    But I also fuck them as hard as they let me. And in my city and state, which have very strong tenants' rights protections, my fucking goes a long way.

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Good on you.

    It's hard for most people who see rent rise faster than salary. Which is the case for most of the United States.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Agreeing: Appliances, repairs, taxes, HOA fees, and utilities are all going up in cost faster than salary. The only homeowner cost I can think of that isn't going up is my mortgage, which is fixed-rate. With a variable-rate mortgage, even that could be going up.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    It's important to be aware of the fact that as long as we allow landlords to exist, they will work tirelessly to get rid of all of these regulations. They have the money and power to do so, and their condition depends on it.

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  • [–] 72 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (49 children)

    Rent isn’t theft. It’s payment for a service.

    What service does the land speculator provide to the tenant? The landlord doesn't develop the property, that's the builder. The landlord doesn't maintain the property, that's done by contractors. The landlord doesn't secure the property, that's done by the state. The landlord often doesn't even finance the property, as the property is inevitably mortgaged and underwritten by banks one step removed from the title holder.

    Quite literally, the only thing landlords do is collect the check and transfer portions of it onward. They are, at best, payment processors. And even this job is routinely outsourced to a third party.

    There are benefits to renting.

    There are lower institutional barriers to renting than to owning, largely resulting from the artificial shortage of public land and public housing. Rents are the consequence of real estate monopolization and public malinvestment. Once the landlords themselves vanish, the "benefits" of renting vanish with them.

    And not all landlords are rich people.

    There's an old joke Donald Trump likes to tell, back in the 90s when he was underwater on his personal holdings. He's driving through Lower Manhattan in a limo with his daughter and he points out the window to a homeless man. Then he quips, "I'm $800M poorer than that man". To which his daughter replies, "If that's true why are we in a limo while he's out on the street?"

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    They could also live there if you sold it to them.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Freedom isn't necessarily for everyone has also been mentioned throughout time. Slavery has existed all through history.

    That doesn't make it ok but anyone who is an enslavery or aspiring enslaver is going to argue some people want to be slaves.

    Removing and restricting the agency of others is never ok. When it's for economic gain, it's always exploitation.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    The ability to live somewhere that otherwise would have been reversed?

    The land speculators do not provide access to the tenant, they prohibit access. That's what inclosure is. You're blocking people from the land on pain of injury and death.

    I can live here, and nobody else.

    Until the state decrees otherwise, sure.

    But if I decided to rent my home out and they paid me rent, they could live here instead!

    There are three people and three houses. How do you decide which of the three people owns all three houses and which of the other two pay that first person rent?

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    Can you tell me why renting land/a home is different than any other object that can be owned?

    For starters, you can't own much if you don't own land. So it becomes a prerequisite for accruing any other objects.

    If you're locked out of owning land, you're locked out of owning anything.

    it seems like land owners (or “speculators”, if that’s the correct term now 🤷‍♂️) prohibit access to everyone except for tenants

    Speculators (or, "land owners", as you're calling them) aren't required to host tenants. They can leave their property vacant without regard to social need.

    And landlords can evict tenants for any reason or no reason at all - or raise rents so high that an eviction is inevitable.

    A question you need to ask is why the landlord possessed the land to begin with. What allows a landlord original access to property?

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    People need homes.

    You buy a pressure washer, and rent it out, thats a good business. Theres no shortage of pressure washers. I can live without one. I can biy my own relatively easy. Choosing to rent or own is a question of how often I expect to want to pressure wash something.

    You can only rent a home that you buy. Which means you had to take it off the market. You can also only rent a home (or room) that you aren’t living in. Which means you need somewhere else to live. You’re taking more than you need, to charge someone else who also needs it, to cover your cost of owning it, maintaining it, and presumably profiting from the difference.

    When this is done at scale, you have owners skewing the market to make it harder and harder to buy.

    They make more money, buy more properties and make it worse. While renters, and young adults get trapped i to renting because they have no options.

    That is what makes it so much different.

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  • [–] 28 points 9 months ago (10 children)

    Should hotels be illegal too? That’s basically renting out a room by the day. What if you cannot afford to buy a house, or only want to live somewhere temporarily? If you cannot rent any place to live, what would you do?

    As with most things, it is a matter of degree.

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  • [–] 35 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    Should hotels be illegal too?

    If they're monopolizing the housing market, absolutely.

    What if you cannot afford to buy a house

    There are 16M vacant homes to distribute among around 770k homeless people. With such an enormous housing surplus, why is the clearing price for a housing unit so far above a new prospective buyer's budget?

    You posit that people can't afford to buy homes without asking why homes are unaffordable.

    Investors accounted for 25.7% of residential home sales in 2024.

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Investors accounted for 25.7% of residential home sales in 2024.

    In that article, the word "investors" is deliberately lumping together individuals, and institutions/corporations, in an obvious attempt to trick people into thinking that category is comprised entirely of the latter. Underhanded semantic maneuver. Within the same article:

    While large institutional investors continue to get most of the headlines in the single-family rental space, small investors account for more than 90% of the market.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    If they’re monopolizing the housing market, absolutely.

    I think there's a middle ground between 'consuming all housing stock in hopes of making airbnbs' and 'illegal'. There's a legitimate case for short term and medium term residence that doesn't make sense with ownership. However while we should accommodate those, it is a fair point the market should be regulated so that people have a reasonable path to ownership if it makes sense without being stuck with competing with rent-seeking corporations sucking up all the inventory.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    I merely pointed out that not all ‘rent is bad’, ‘landlords are evil’.

    Among probably many reasons that housing is unaffordable for many is that some persons or corporations are awful scumbags that want to maximize their profit beyond what is reasonable or fair.

    Renting isn’t bad. Capitalism isn’t bad. Abuse of these things is bad.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    You are not a landlord if you are sharing your home, you would be a roommate. If you are charging them rent, then yes you are a landlord :) no should ever profit off of housing! Housing is a human right! No one should ever have to sleep in your home, everyone should be able to have their own shelter that belongs to them! This is an absolutely conceivable reality homelessness is entirely a manufactured byproduct of capitalism. We have millions of empty homes and wasted infrastructure that could be used to house people.

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  • [–] 29 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    The key thing that the landlord handles is risk. If the roof is very expensive to fix, that is not the contractor's problem. If the property does not generate revenue, that is not the bank's problem. If the property is not worth the cost to build, that is not the builder's problem. If the property is unsafe to live in, that is not the renter's problem.

    The landlord's financial risk in the property (should) provide an incentive to maintain and make use of that property.

    I'm not saying there aren't other system of distribution people to homes, and I'm not saying that the capitalist system in the US is the best system to do it. I'm just pointing out that a core principle of capitalism is risk, and that is what the landlord provides, a single point buffer of risk for the other parties involved.

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

    This is completely ignorant of the fact that landlords can get insurance for those things and often dont have to pay anything at all. And when they do have to pay themselves, they will pay the minimum amount possible to maximize their profits often resulting in degrading housing that people living in suffer the consequences for.

    Housing is a human right. Capitalism commits violence against the people by denying them shelter. It's a crime against humanity. Landlords exist only to profit off of this system. By your own exact definition all homeowners are the same point of risk mitigation, and therefore all renters would also be the same point of risk mitigation. Landlords have inserted themselves as a middle man to steal the labor of the working class. They profit off of the venture. Thats the whole point of them doing it.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    This is completely ignorant of the fact that landlords can get insurance for those things and often dont have to pay anything at all

    They still have to pay insurance to get insurance. And I'm not sure you can get insurance against the roof getting old (not in my area anyway). When the roof is too old and needs replacing, you do it out of pocket/bank loan. Complete roof replacement are not so often (depending on material), so you can (and should) as a home owner save up to this.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    There are a few fundamental things a landlord provides:

    • Avoiding cost of transitioning a property. Government, insurers, and lawyers make transitioning ownership of a house expensive. That by itself erases about a year of typical 'equity' gains. If you have to mortgage, then net loss is likely over the first couple of years. If you know you will leave in say 4 years or less, this has value.
    • Ease of leaving. If you own, you can't just immediately cash in and move out with the proceeds. If you have to move, you get stuck having to pay for two residences until you can manage to offload.
    • Potentially access to rent a home when no one will loan you money. On top of being only there for college, when I started renting I had no history, so no bank would have loaned me money anyway, certainly not at a reasonable rate. Sometimes landlords will have as strict a credit requirement as banks, but it's at least more likely to find a willing landlord than a bank willing to risk the loan.

    This comes together for renting making a whole lot of sense for people on a remote work assignment, college students, and seasonal occupants who need a residence for a few months or a couple of years. Also for people who have just moved out on their own and need a residence while they get some credit history under their belt, hopefully being in a situation like university where the need is short term as well.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it

    My salary? I am a wage slave just like everybody else.

    Anyway, you didn't address the main questions:

    • Do you think providing exclusive access to a house for the renter to live in is something that has no value?
    • This house didn't just happen to fall in my lap. I put 250k of my own money in over the course of 30 years (10 years to save for the down payment + 20 years of mortage payments). Money that I worked for, doing a job. It's literally the fruit of my labor. By what ungodly reasoning should I have to give that to you or anyone else for free?

    It seems you are the one here who is not making any effort to be understanding.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (11 children)

    You're intentionally leaving out that the landlord maintains the property and appliances. That's no small thing.

    There are absolutely bad landlords who will do as little as their tenants will allow them to, for sure. Landlords aren't like cops though, the continuing existence of bad landlords is not enabled by good ones like how "good cops" do.

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    The landlord uses my rent money to pay others to maintain the property. It's an entirely middle man position of zero value to society

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    They're still buying a surplus of housing, creating scarcity that raises home prices, and charging you more than it costs to live in the housing they're hoarding.

    So even if they're doing the maintenance themselves (and no guarantee they're doing a good job), they're still a drain on the resources of actual workers.

    Housing must be decommodified.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Good landlords will only be as good as they need to be, to continue renting. In a housing shortage, that means they will keep getting worse over time, doing little and hearing little from their tenants who have only ever dealt with predatory landlords.

    They will almost always charge as much as they can, not doing anything to help the renters.

    The exceptions to this will be invisible on the market, because renters will do everything in their power to never move out or change their situation.

    Long time renters are trapped, because they are paying nearly as much as a mortgage, and getting no equity from it, unable to save a down payment to get out of it.

    Renting to seasonal, temp workers or students is about the only exception where renting is a necessary service, but currently its way over priced, so its not a great value. So still predatory.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Been renting the last 20 years, and I can rightfully say FUCK YOU!!!

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    I can draw that conclusion simply by looking around me seeing how better off are home owners financially.

    Where I live, paying a mortgage is 30% cheaper than paying rent.

    Also paying a mortgage is like putting money inside your bank account while having somewhere to live, whereas by paying rent you simply put money in your landlord's pockets further enriching them or allowing then to not work.

    Additionaly there are guardrails for when you can't pay your mortgage while in most countries there are none for not paying your rent.

    Edit: I guess the people you mention are so well off that they don't experience any financial insecurity, have passive income unrelated to actual work and thus can threat home ownership as a services. Aren't they?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Yeah, I fully expected to be heavily in the negative, so I'm glad that at least some people got the nuance I was going for.

    Yes, many times, especially with corporate owned housing, the agreement is exploitative, but that's not all rental situations.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Part of the payment is for services, but it doesn't make sense overall to call it a service because the cost is only in small part determined by the value of upkeep etc. being handled, there is no option to do this yourself instead and not pay. The main thing driving the cost of housing is the supply of housing, the desirability of the location, and who owns it all.

    Think about mobile homes; how well built a mobile home is, or how well it is maintained, ultimately doesn't matter that much and it will still depreciate if it is located on rented land, because the real driver of housing value is the value of the legal right to live in that particular location, and that right is ultimately controlled by the owner of the lot. Same goes for any housing; what matters most is the land, being able to safely and legally sleep there, and the ability of the property owner to control who can do that.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    In the interest of pedantry, technically you are correct.

    Land ownership is theft, rent is just the symptom.

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