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Wayland didn’t kill Linux desktops, but it did expose their weakest assumptions [EDIT: Warning, article likely written with AI assistance] (www.xda-developers.com)
submitted 9 months ago by to c/linux@programming.dev
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[–] 90 points 9 months ago (45 children)

Took a while, but Wayland is basically at a point now where it generally just works. I'm glad I don't really need to deal with weird tearing issues or the X server not starting for whatever esoteric reason after a driver update anymore.

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  • [+] -32 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (44 children)

    Wayland is a protocol, and major desktop versions like gnome and Kde implementation sucks balls...

    Desktop crashes, oh there goes all my applikations that I started, gnome can't keep up with switching workspaces because doesn't fucking register the release key event. Fuck me dude xorg had no issues with switching windows or crashed barely crashed, gnome crashes 2 times a day. Oh sorry dude you want to use a custom screenshot tool, sorry dude, can't allow that, have to do some weird workaround.

    Oh you want change keybindings, no sorry dude can't don't support it.

    Oh you wanted to automate window/workspace switching via scripts, you have inject fucking JavaScript into our runtime to query windows ids and state..

    Jesus what joke of an implementation, it's the anti theist of Linux. Everyone got fooled and allowed GUI developers implement the rendering backend...

    And the best of all: hey do you want make software for Linux, sorry you app doesn't work in KDE because the whole implementation of functionality you're using is different from other Wayland implementation, can you plz fix in kde and gnome?

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    "I have an issue with wayland waaa its so bad"

    pulls of the mask

    Its an issue with gnome.

    Every. Single. Time.

    Its far better to have compositing the actually works vs the borked shit xorg has. Forcing every desktop maker to share the terrible stagnant base that was xorg is not the linux way. You've chosen to use an opinionated desktop that doesnt have the features you want. These arent hard to implement, a child was able to implement all those features by themselves in a few years.

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  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Lmao, I didn't choose gnome I'm forced to use it, Wayland sux balls. If you are talking about the buggy mess that is hyprland give me a break.

    There was a lot of development happening around x server via extension to it, composite, xrandr, xrender. Stuff was being moved out of the x server and into the kernel. So what if, it was a heap of legacy, so is the Linux kernel. Shit worked and it worked good enough. The only thing that made it stagnant was forcing everyone to adopt Wayland, because of being afraid to be left behind.

    Now canonical and red hat decides what should be part of the protocol, great isn't. They cant even have a broad consensus leaving everyone to guess how shit should implemented.

    Features: x11 Performance: x11 Tooling: x11 User friendly: x11 Multiscreen support: Wayland (but they also fucked upp with limitations due the protocol decisions they made)

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    You arent forced to do anything and why the fuck would you think im talking about hyprland. Pretty sure your whole comment is just trolling and you dont believe a single thing you're saying.

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  • [–] 27 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (19 children)

    I have kde + Wayland on Arch, and everything works just fine even with my Nvidia card. About 1.5 years ago there was a bug big Wayland update that changed it from literally unusable to good but maybe a little buggy. Now it's as stable as anything I've ever used.

    I use spectacle for screen shots without issue. Switch windows, desktops, snapping windows, etc works perfect for me. Other features you mentioned I can't personally speak to, but not having all of the features on a rolling release is to be expected with anything. It's early phases were bad though.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    I have KDE + Wayland on Arch using an Nvidia GPU and I have tons of nagging issues that seemingly cannot be resolved with current drivers.

    More power to you if it all just works, but that isn't universal

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    That's unfortunate. Idk what I did but it's just worked for me for a long time now. I definitely feel in the minority with having success with an Nvidia GPU. I run 3 monitors, 1 vertical, one an ultra wide, and one on top. It remembers position, colors and refresh are on pont and other than needing to restart Steam from time to time, it's just worked for me. My next card will still not be Nvidia though.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (16 children)

    The event loop shit is a gnome issue I have, I haven't tried it with KDE but I wouldn't be surprised if the issue remains, where if you are switching windows/workspace to often the gnome event loop doesn't register that you have released the key because it's to busy fucking rendering the window/ Workspace switch.

    We obviously don't have the same use case, so if it works for you all power to you. But it sucks balls, the way I like use my laptop when I'm working. Can't even do simple shit as to rebind a key, please find a working guide for kde or gnome, surprise they don't work, and it's fucking baffling the amount of different guides of how change keybindings and how many steps they require you do to, but they even work, why is that?

    Why doesn't Wayland support fucking a config file, where you define key bindings, why does it not allow to copy shit from the terminal via xclip or any other method, it's like we went back 50 years in time, dude these tools existed 25 years ago.

    Wtf is this, it's lacking so much functionality and also performance is worse, you get more performance from xserver like 20% more fps, just try playing a game and turn on the fps meter, and compare them. Wtf is this, how do you build something new based on prior knowledge but it's worse.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    https://superuser.com/questions/1189467/how-to-copy-text-to-the-clipboard-when-using-wayland#1377550 In KDE, you can rebind the keybinds for anything, it's under system settings in the keyboard section, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. You can add custom ones to run any command, too, if the app doesn't register a keybind, so you could, for example, send a dbus signal to the app. The way it's done in wayland is different, but KDE supports all the stuff you mentioned in wayland from what I can tell.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    It works so bad in KDE, and no I don't want to use GUI to bind keys, I want to save the configuration and use if I need to reinstall. I tried to rebind changing keyboard layout, doesn't work.

    Sorry dude, but it works horribly bad

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    So, it does work, just not the way you would prefer it to?

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  • [–] -5 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    No because it crashes bro, key events aren't properly registered, getting ghosted keys or whatever the term is, when it's to busy rendering the window animations or Workspace animations.

    I'll tell you what, it's super convenient for red hat/IBM or whoever else is paying for the development of gnome and KDE development to install spyware, because now everything goes via Wayland protocol.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Wait, wait, going via a wayland protocol means each piece of software requires you to opt into what it collects, on X11 they can just read everything all the time no matter what, spyware in X11 is trivially easy, it's much harder when it goes via a wayland protocol.

    Also, is what you're describing on gnome or KDE? As I understand it, KDE separates those parts out, so one shouldn't block the other.

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (10 children)

    I get very good fps in every game I play on my 2080ti that's very much not new. I've had to download a fix for one game I have, and Sony doesn't allow multiplayer in Ghost of Tsushima, but every other game literally loads and runs better than they ever have. 100fps+ in most games, and maybe less than 60 in the most intense. Arch + kde + Wayland is easily the best computing experience I've ever had.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (9 children)

    I didn't say Wayland had bad performance, if you read I said that x11 has better performance. For Wayland being new and more modern it should not underperform and dude just fucking look benchmarks online, you have internet.

    Here this one is for free, how you candy read. https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/wayland-vs-x11-performance-amd-graphics.html

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    I've had no performance degredation moving to Wayland after the aformentioned update. I read what you said. I've noticed no difference in performance, and anyone that's fretting about 120 fps vs 110 fps is just splitting hairs for the sake of be being pedantic. I concede that there are some features that don't exist that don't apply to me and the vast majority of users, but for most of us, Wayland is just as good if not better in some common aspects.

    No need to be hostile my dude. Chill.

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  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    Na I'll always be hostile it's more fun, I would less hostile if people stop the with telling what works for them, like I'm going to fucking get the same setup as dem. You do understand that there's more angles than one, and not stopping and thinking yourself about the issue at hand and making weird assumptions without looking up anything, is kinda annoying after a while.

    Because that is how most people are on Lemmy, it's so hard to just have a discussion because you always have some people make counterpoints that fucking suck ass, and not based in anyone else's reality but their own.

    If I wouldn't be hostile I would just stop writing, and it's not like I'm angry, it's just sounds funnier.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    If your only two options are hostile or silent, let's go with silent.

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  • [+] 13 points 9 months ago (9 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    Yeah sure, if you don't anything with it

    :kekw: 1 :kekw: 1
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  • [+] 10 points 9 months ago (6 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Yep, but my laptop I use the igpu

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  • [+] 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Tbh I dont enjoy any OS I actually hate computers, they are in the way of what I'm trying to do, it's just an interface to do something else. But when the interface is effecting your experience to much it's just sad.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    What is it that you're trying to do then?

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    So I don't have to deal with manually managing windows or workspaces, or manually configure my desktop each time I have to reinstall my computer for whatever reason. I have a bunch of workspace profiles for x11, for what goes where. Im very bad at keeping my workspace clean and tidy and I like it clean and tidy, so I have to automate these processes, other wise it's just a hassle.

    Imagine that you are playing StarCraft by not using the mouse, and you do it quite efficiently, you have bindings and key combos for doing anything you want to do, and it's just muscle memory that you've built up so you don't even need to think about it. All your F1 keys to the correct locations on the map, all your unit producing structures already defined, your unit group keys already grouped, units get added automatically to a group. You know what group contains what kind of units.

    This is totally doable in x11, doesn't matter what desktop you are using as long as you can send commands to the X Server, because everyone is using the same implementation (with some smaller modifications) .

    The state of Wayland now (I have a hard time seeing that it will improve) is everything is a workaround, and you have to spend hours trying to figure out how to do basic stuff, and sometime after spending hours you just give up. This isn't Linux, this is what I except from windows or macOS. Linux is about customizing your desktop they way you want it to work.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    Desktop crashes, oh there goes all my applikations that I started

    I'm using KDE with a 1080ti. My desktop regularly crashes (it's some hardware issue, pretty sure my 1080ti is on its way out). I never lose any of my open applications. All that happens is the wallpaper goes black, the panels disappear. Then about 5 seconds later the wallpaper and panels reload like nothing happened. Sometimes a panel widget will be "stuck" in a loading state, but opening then closing its settings refreshes it.

    Aside from that no issues. And no crashing on any of my other systems with KDE.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    I'm using gnome rn and it doesn't crash much anymore. When I used xorg, there'd be crashes that brought down the entire desktop (or the computer as a whole) too. Also, generally every time I have a crash now it's from using xwayland to play a game and having certain extensions enabled at the same time (although those issues seem to have disappeared recently too). All the other issues I either don't care about or are supported with some extra work. For gnome, some of the issues are just because they have a phobia of exposing settings and you need to use stuff like dconf to deal with it.

    Jesus what joke of an implementation, it's the anti theist of Linux. Everyone got fooled and allowed GUI developers implement the rendering backend...

    As you mentioned earlier, it's a protocol. Implementation issues are due to how gnome/kde/whatever implemented their compositors. I think it's pretty much standard for Linux given that stuff like systemd and flatpak exist. If you want to use something more traditional unix-y, maybe you should use a bsd or solaris derivative or something.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I think it's pretty much standard for Linux given that stuff like systemd and flatpak exist. If you want to use something more traditional unix-y, maybe you should use a bsd or solaris derivative or something.

    That's a pretty toxic take, much in the way like Windows does things.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I mean the person I'm responding to seems to want a traditional Unix experience given how they're talking (and given they use suckless software). Linux generally isn't that, and it never really has been (or at least hasn't for many years). If you want something more traditional, there are a bunch of available options like the BSDs. If you insist on using Linux, you can use distros that don't use Wayland, systemd, flatpak, etc., but the support for them is lower, and if you need to use something that isn't packaged for example you'll need to deal with getting it working with e.g. systemd on your own. A bunch of software makes assumptions that stuff like systemd is now included if you use Linux. I'm currently using a distro without systemd and am seriously considering swapping back to my old one because it's such a hassle.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Admitedly, i'm currently in a "take a step back" phase and like to see software breaking. It's healthy for the linux ecosystem if things break.
    And in software that is a hassle (usually Gnomes on a not-Gnome environment) either the software itself is really good and somebody made a patch or packaged a old working version already. Or i look for something simpler to do the same.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I still use x11 with suckless dwm, but for work I'm forced to use Ubuntu 25.10 gnome shit. It's a sad state. Gnome owns all the process you start via gnome, that is why if gnome dies all the child process es dies as well, genius. Because the buggy mess, doesn't critical errors and never will have...

    I don't know how you use gnome, if it doesn't crash for you, fine, good. But that's not my reality, it can crash because I open the laptop screen while being on an external monitor. It can crash because I'm screen sharing, it can crash because some software I used froze, it can crash for random reason (doesn't happen often, but still annoying).

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Desktop crashes, oh there goes all my applikations that I started, gnome can't keep up with switching workspaces[...]

    GNOME, found your problem.

    I can take screenshots or rebind keys on KDE, all of that without session losing crashes.

    All you are describing simply doesn't happen in KDE, and GNOME is notoriously bad at handling crashes, so go complain about GNOME rather than wayland as wayland is clearly not the culprit.

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