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[–] 1 point 1 year ago

This "joke" is so old that I'm tired of repeating it. Every day I'm surprised by non-onion articles.

There's surely a joke form. I can't be arsed to. This isn't a joking matter

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  • [–] 181 points 1 year ago (49 children)

    The crowd backed off after managing to free protesters held by agents. One ICE officer yelled, “We’ll get you next time!” while walking backward.

    Numbers. As long as the crowd has numbers, they will give up. Send them packing with their tails between their legs.

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  • [–] 59 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    They even sound like cartoon villains.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    more like team rocket jesse and james, they come in all planning and calculated, but ends up easily getting sent flying.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    Jesse & James are far to woke and empathetic though. Several of their failures are because they couldn't go through with plan with enough ruthlessness. Other groups of Team Rocket often have more initial success by having a lot less empathy.

    King Richard feels more appropriate. A pathetic calculating advisor hamstrung by running damage control for the mewling lion having a tantrum.

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  • [–] 107 points 1 year ago (41 children)

    When this is over, we are going to have to try, convict, and hang thousands of ICE agents for crimes against humanity. They are committing capital offenses. Many of them need to hang for this.

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  • [+] -38 points 1 year ago (40 children)

    Skip the trying and convicting. Straight to hanging.

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  • [–] 71 points 1 year ago (38 children)

    They're in the wrong but the whole point is everyone should be allowed due process.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Considering how the 1st Reconstruction got cancelled, and the Nazi elements that persist in Germany, I think that there is a great deal of evidence that mercy doesn't work against systemic evils. The whole concept of Nazi, Confederate, and now MAGAT, ideology should go on trial...with death being the sentence if a whole class of participants are found guilty.

    Worked for ICE? You die.

    It isn't kind, nor just. But this disease of evil needs to be uprooted, else it will spread into future generations of the nation. The Confederates and Nazis have proven this.

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I would 10 times rather have lived in postwar Germany than in post revolution France, China, Russia…

    Reconstruction is probably the one time that I know of when they were too lenient. Jefferson Davis of all people basically just walked free, and then on down. We’re still paying the price to this day for the betrayal of everything the union soldiers died for. But IDK how you can look at the history of blood thirst and lack of due process, after the revolution, and say “Yeah let’s do that I sure super want to live in that country.”

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Honestly, I do not know how harsh things should be. Part of the problem, is that it isn't clear how we convince neoconfederates from being what they are. Talk of peace, empathy, and cooperation doesn't seem to move the needle with MAGA.

    My impression, is that either they are only keyed to self-preservation in the face of extreme consequences, or simply lack the humanity to ever become better people if mercy was offered. Either way, it feels like a blunt solution is the only reliable way to remove MAGA from existence. It is my hope that by making it clear to MAGA aligned people what will happen if things go on, would make them reconsider...but if not, then at least I and others would become mentally prepared to force them to rest.

    When peace isn't a option, violence is inevitable. If that has to be the way, I know whom I prefer to be removed from the mortal coil. Hopefully, it won't come to that. But hope isn't reliable.

    This whole situation is rotten. 😞

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    This whole situation is rotten. 😞

    Completely agree. Democracy just can't function if a third of the people in the country don't want it, and just want their faction to rule by force, and that's where we're at right now.

    All I'm saying is that postwar Germany is probably the best I am aware of out of a selection of bad historical precedents for how you recover from that situation into something approximating a stable and safe society. Organized trials with due process for anyone who killed innocent people or otherwise participated in the worst of the horrors, and acceptance of the idea that a lot of people, especially at the bottom of the org chart, just aren't going to "get it" that anything that they did was wrong.

    I think once the tribalism gets engaged firmly in people's heads, where their faction is the one with God on its side and anyone who's an enemy deserves to be snuffed out, you can't really fix them from the outside. They have to either come to it themselves, or not, and in the meantime life has to move on as best it can. The problem with Germany as a precedent is that there was someone from outside to come and impose it...

    Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCHeFjADTTs

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  • [+] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    There is a risk of bad outcomes, true. Unfortunately, I don't see a good way to remove the cancer of the Confederacy.

    As to what is currently happening, I suspect the blood of many innocent people will stain the soil of Florida in the coming years. They never did anything to warrant their suffering.

    That is a key difference concerning ICE, Border Patrol, Trump, Thiel, and so many other willing members of the Trump Regime: they wanted people to die, just because. Offering mercy to someone who thought it was alright to send children to die in the Florida heat, they probably won't reflect on the morality of their actions.

    At what point, does mercy become naivety?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The reason most civilized nations have removed the death penalty is that even in modern criminal cases, at least one in five convicted persons are innocent.

    If you lock someone up, there is the possibility of releasing them and providing them with an income to say sorry for taking most of their life away. If you execute them, nothing can be done to make amends - it is a final and irreversible step.

    I cannot even imagine the kind of kangaroo justice that would be encouraged by attempting to go after anyone involved in this current state of affairs. If we get things wrong 20% of the time with a stable society, how well are we going to fare on establishing guilt when we're trying to quickly process tens of thousands of stormtrooper cosplayers? Yes, they're probably horrible, horrible people, but I think extreme repercussions should be reserved for ringleaders and people in a decision making capacity. Even then, we should stop short of killing them.

    I am fairly sure the people on the ground acting out will have the rest of their lives to process the trauma they've inflicted on themselves, their communities and their victims - and many of them won't be able to come to grips with it in this lifetime.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The Confederates in America got off easy, and look what their descendants have become: MAGATs. What that tells me, is that the confederates were only sorry for losing, not that they processed trauma and developed empathy.

    It would be good if your path works. Unfortunately, I cannot find the faith to believe in your position.

    The concentration camps of CECOT and Alligator Auschwitz shouldn't exist. Noem Kristi making light of 65 million latino lives as alligator feed, it doesn't inspire confidence in the humanity of whom I once considered to be American. I will hope you are right, but I cannot wager on it.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Concentration camps have existed in the US and Canada before. First for indigenous populations and then for the Japanese after Peal Harbor.

    And you're right, it's a sore test of faith to allow people to continue to live in bigotry - and especially difficult when they are doing everything in their power to hurt you. Unfortunately short of "killing them all", which is a path that will lead to exactly the same outcomes over time, it has to be done.

    There is a reason a path of faith is considered a harder path.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    They'll just make you the Nazi\ICE\whatever. Similarly with "antisemitism".

    So better don't.

    It might feel counterintuitive, but softness and humanism work. While all this "we need to be cruel" shit doesn't. It just allows your enemy to change coats when you're not looking and then bring you to the guillotine.

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  • [+] -13 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    Nah. These fuckers are openly admitting they are mass murderers reveling in the number of us they can kill. In this case alone, the only good fascist is a dead fascist, they chose to harm us, so we don't need to go through all the rigamarole of prosecuting such dangerous people to the community. Their actions speak louder than any words they could ever say in their defense. The only good fascist is a dead fascist. Shoot, stab, and string these traitors up every chance you get.

    I already am.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The point of the due process is to determine that they were in fact one of these people. Due process doesn't mean no conviction, it means no witch hunts

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  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    They don't want to follow the rules of Habeus Corpus, then those rules don't apply to the fascists. The rest of us want those rules, and therefore they should apply. I'm just giving them exactly what they want applied only to them.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Mate without due process you don't know who's getting hanged for what. 'I saw _____(name whatever neighbor you don't like) collaborating with ice' becomes a death sentence . If you're so unconcerned with hanging innocents congrats, you're the fascist now

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    That is, in fact, exactly how some revolutions with good intentions turned into nightmares far worse than the evils they were revolutioning against.

    If you’re going to punish someone, you need to prove they did something wrong. 100% of the time. It doesn’t matter if you “already know” and it’s frustrating to have to go through this slow process where they get to fight back. It doesn’t matter if you’re “on the right side” or whatever. That whole thinking needs to go right the fuck out the window, even if it is satisfyingly simple in the moment.

    Edit: To bring some specifics to it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_White_Terror

    And so on. It also happened in China, the USSR, lots of places. The structures of law are fragile and slow, and just executing the person that someone accused of being a former ICE agent is easy. Until someone with a grudge accuses you, or your family...

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    Ah yes, the real and very successful strategy of fighting fire with more fire. Let's just go more fascist in the other direction, that'll show em!

    My dude, I get that you're angry, but think about your ideas for a second before ejaculating them onto the Internet.

    Confirming that they are actually ICE and that they did terrible things IS WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR JUSTICE. Letting people randomly accuse others and having that accusation lead to a literal hanging is not justice. If that's not what you mean then SAY WHAT YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE. We are real human beings having a conversation, not competing for Internet points.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how obvious their guilt is. We still need a formal process.

    We should never trust the government, or any authority, to call someone a criminal outright.

    Not to mention that capital punishment is barbaric. Yes, they are acting barbaric as well, but we should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm with you, and I'm all for due process. However, I have some questions that I would like to ask, as you seem well grounded.

    Are soldiers in a war that engage in active combat due the civil treatment of due process before they're retaliated against?

    What constitutes a soldier in this case? Uniforms? Acting against people without any expectation of due process holding them accountable? State sanctioned? I must be missing something.

    Isn't the states desire to suspend habeas corpus a tacit admission of desire for civil war against ones own peoples?

    I'm a bit confused -- at what point we're supposed to defend ourselves and not rely on due process? What is the proverbial line-in-the-sand where tolerance cedes way for intolerance -- especially in regards to fascism?

    I think I must be missing something. Due process is great, but it doesn't stop people from killing my family. It just holds them accountable after the fact. I'm not necessarily agreeing with the one you're disagreeing with, I'm just wondering if your sense of tolerance will protect my loved ones from violent fascists and I'm starting to get the sense that doesn't matter. I'm starting to get the sense that others will tell me I'm wrong for using violent means to protect myself and others from violence and I hope I'm wrong about that. Not trying to be disingenuous.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Exactly, this isn't to find the innocent among ice, it's to put the expected behavior of the justice system into place so that way it doesn't have a precedent like this. If we go from one government that ignores trial tights to another we aren't getting the rule of law, and governments don't cede power out of the goodness of their hearts. It's also to establish and maintain legitimacy.

    The Nuremberg trials are the gold standard for a reason. The crimes were established, laid out, and the obviously guilty had the opportunity to defend themselves. This means that no legitimate historians doubt the crimes against humanity and the degree to which all 11 sentenced to execution (ten hanged, Göring killed himself after being sentenced) were responsible.

    Part of why fair trials are so good is that they serve as a steel man to your right to punish. And right now that matters.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    If it's so obvious then due process should be a slam dunk.

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  • [+] -15 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    They don't want due process. Give them what they want.

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    I am so gratified to see the rate of downvotes on your nonsense, and the number of people trying to talk sense into you in addition.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    There's a deeper debate to be had, here. I get why this guy is being down voted, but he's making a point in a very unpalatable way. The real underlying question is 'are those that violate social contacts due the protections of said social contracts'? How do we, as a society, correct for this? Are we still bound by the rules of a contract that another party actively violated, in regards to that party? If you answer yes, this leads to the 'paradox of tolerance.' How do we come to terms with that? Until we either realize this, and come to terms with this, or create an infallible system, how do we create a system that is resistant to this? That it's presented in the worst way possible notwithstanding.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I don't think the privilege of the social contract applies here, because we first have to confirm that they violated the social contract. If they're caught in the act, sure go ahead. But if we start excluding people from the social contract without knowing they are the ones who violated it, it becomes very easy to eject anyone for any reason.

    Due process isn't for the benefit of the guilty, but for the safety of the innocent accused.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Sure, I agree, but how does this or will this function when we're actively being denied the right to due process? That's the point of the masks, right? Are we seriously under the illusion that justice will prevail first and foremost and someone will just hand us a list with the names and records of the secret police operating against their own people? Don't get me confused, better 100 criminals and one innocent walk free, vice 100 criminals and one innocent are put to justice. I mean, we agree on this, there's no argument here.
    I guess now that I really think about it, my real issue is that people still seem to believe that this will magically happen and we just have to wait and have faith that justice will prevail and a new system will save us. I don't believe there's a system where what you describe -- due process -- is a realistic expectation until we make one, until then I'm not content believing in civilities that I'm uncertain we can afford because there's no mandate, or right, to perform them.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah, breaking from norms is always difficult, because everyone can point out all the new problems, and very few have any solutions.

    Paintballs might work, giving strong leads on home location. This might be turned around on protesters though, and using a weapon near ICE is risky especially once they know why.

    I'm not sure the courts could even follow through on a suite at this point though. Acting while ICE is acting might be the best method, which is just escalation. An important thing to prepare for, but is there a smarter way?

    Air tags on vehicles? Reading the MAC address of cell phones and looking for them at local shops? Hacking google location data? Following agents with drones?

    The bigger problem is an effective movement requires some organisation, and USers are so segregated by cars that they only socialize outside their friend circle on moderated social media. A movement of this nature would be stamped out before reaching enough eyes to begin. Non-surveillance messaging is becomming more common, but building a group is still difficult.

    It's not an easy question...

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  • Excellent response and I share your sentiments. I think you're doing more thought than most people and we need more of this. It's difficult and nuanced, but the only sensible way. I'd just be echoing your thoughts by responding further.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    "I don't want this guy setting fire to our shared apartment building. That's a violation of the social contract. So I'm going to set fire to our shared apartment building. That'll show him."

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You're conflating my questions with a defense for the one you're disagreeing with. They were honest questions. I would understand if you didn't wish to opine upon them, but at least don't straw-man my honest questions.. I'd really rather have honest debates and thoughts, even if I didn't necessarily agree with them. Not thought-terminating arguments.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I'm addressing what you said, in a succinct way. If it's a little too unclear, then:

    The real underlying question is ‘are those that violate social contacts due the protections of said social contracts’?

    No, they're not. But, you have no idea who has violated the social contract unless you have due process.

    Those that you're not sure yet have violated the social contract, because it hasn't been proven, are due the protections of said social contracts. Yes. That's the trial phase. Then, after that, we decide they might not be due the protection of the same social contract. That's the punishment phase. They're different. It is extremely popular in times of crisis to start to skip ahead to punishment without trial, as part of the official process, because things are so dire, and that's explicitly what this person was advocating for. That is wrong. Because you'll wind up punishing people who haven't violated any social contract at all.

    Are we still bound by the rules of a contract that another party actively violated, in regards to that party?

    No. But once it gets to a broad scale, and due process breaks down on all sides as people start a big melee for their own safety against their enemies, things can get very very bad.

    Sometimes there's no way around that, of course. That's what we call a war. Maybe that's where we are headed. But deciding ahead of time that you're going to abandon due process within a civil society, because of how dangerous it is that your opponents want to abandon due process, is just hastening the phase of "might makes right." It's pretty hard to come back from that once it happens. A lot of people have had to grapple with this, notably the allies after World War 2 trying to figure out how to punish the guilty. If they'd gone with this "they're SO bad that they don't deserve due process" type of thing, Oskar Schindler would probably be dead.

    If you answer yes, this leads to the ‘paradox of tolerance.’

    No. Not having the trial and doing nothing, or having the trial and then not doing the punishment, is tolerance. Having the trial and then punishing is justice. Not having the trial and doing the punishment anyway is terror. I'm not aware of a time when that was the solution that didn't go horribly sideways almost instantly.

    There are times when there was some massive crime against humanity and the paradox of tolerance prevented effective resolution, and it was very bad. Reconstruction is a good example. But just doing arbitrary punishment for anyone some random person decides is guilty is ten times worse. Even if you get it right 100% of the time, which you won't, it sets a precedent that is horrifyingly hard to stop once people have gotten in the habit.

    Seems a little more clear spelled out that way?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Thank you, and upvoted!

    No. Not having the trial and doing nothing, or having the trial and then not doing the punishment, is tolerance. Having the trial and then punishing is justice. Not having the trial and doing the punishment anyway is terror. I'm not aware of a time when that was the solution that didn't go horribly sideways almost instantly.

    This is well said, and satisfies as an answer. As well as your break down of trial and punishment phases and how they fit into the social contact model. This gives a great deal of missing insights and helps me round out my world view where my thought process was sorely lacking. Your view has helped shape my own, I wish I got to say that more from my online interactions.

    Sometimes there's no way around that, of course. That's what we call a war.

    This is where my real concern lies, the suspension AND partial application of habeas corpus is essentially -- in my view -- a casus belli due the public. Habeas corpus must be universal in its application by the state, or the federal-state must be seen as a direct threat to the civilian public. They've tested the waters on this already in prior protests. At what point do we admit that it's no longer being honored by the federal-state and realize that we've been stripped of our right to accuse those who have wronged us -- also part of due process -- and take matters into our own hands to restore our rights?

    At what point is tolerance indistinguishable from cowardice in the name of tolerance?

    Perhaps I'm being rhetorical. The issue I have is that I don't see a meaningful way forward to even exercise due process, and even if we did have one, how that prevents catastrophic social consequences happening meanwhile. Due process is a reactive measure, after all.

    I don't believe the state, whether federal or not, will prosecute agents of the state that violate my rights -- human or constitutional. Therefore, as important as discussions about habeas corpus/due process are, for me it's putting the cart before the horse. Nothing you suggest prevents state-agents from murdering people -- due process or not. (After review, it wasn't a failure to address this point -- it was just outside the scope of the point you were making).

    Apologies for the long winded response, apparently I had more to say on this than I realized. TL;DR we agree, apparently -- as I've just come to realize -- the only difference is that I believe that we're already at war, just not entirely de facto. Might does not make right, but it can correct a wrong and the people can be mighty.

    Seems a little more clear spelled out that way?

    Much more so, I thank you for taking the time and effort to respond as well as you did.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago

    This is where my real concern lies, the suspension AND partial application of habeas corpus is essentially – in my view – a casus belli due the public. Habeas corpus must be universal in its application by the state, or the federal-state must be seen as a direct threat to the civilian public. They’ve tested the waters on this already in prior protests. At what point do we admit that it’s no longer being honored by the federal-state and realize that we’ve been stripped of our right to accuse those who have wronged us – also part of due process – and take matters into our own hands to restore our rights?

    Yeah. The entire concept of American governance was that the people in the country fight to maintain control of their own government, and then take responsibility for it running properly. We’ve wandered pretty far from that at this point. To a large degree because the tools that we might use to coordinate and organize the fight have been co-opted by people who want to run the government on their own behalf.

    Apologies for the long winded response, apparently I had more to say on this than I realized. TL;DR we agree, apparently – as I’ve just come to realize – the only difference is that I believe that we’re already at war, just not entirely de facto.

    Agreed. Yeah, I was talking just about what the desired end state should be once democracy is reestablished, not saying we shouldn’t be vigorously defending ourselves right now.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Numbers. As long as the crowd has numbers, they will give up. Send them packing with their tails between their legs.

    ... while you still can. With a $200 billion budget, ICE will have the upper hand in no time

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  • [–] 74 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    So, this is purely for educational purposes, like googling jury nullification, but people should be aware of what a police "Stop Stick" is and how the police use them.

    They're basically constructed out of stuff from the hardware store: a 2-3ft foam triangle cut from a sheet with a utility knife, ~2" steel tubes cut to a syringe-like point on either end and glued to the three faces of the triangle, then the whole thing wrapped in paper or fabric. When a vehicle runs one over the foam crushes and the tube-needles instantly deflate the tire. You can drive for a few minutes after being hit (until the now flat tire disintegrates and you're on the rim) but they work by...strongly deterring...someone from driving forward because of the amount of damage they cause and rendering the vehicle much less capable when trying to escape a persuit.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I see these posts and think "boy, I sure hope none of these anti-ICE people used laser pointers on themasked stazi... Sure would be a shame to use prime day to buy a load of laser pointers and hand them out"

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  • this is the best way because it takes away ICE's biggest advantage. they are terrorists. they come out of nowhere, strike, and disappear again. their mobility gives them an enormous advantage. taking their biggest advantage away from them is the biggest thing you can do.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    courts try to threaten people who say jury nullification when your being selected voir dire, its better to say you dont believe in this or tha tlaw, or you dont like that person to show bias so you wont get selected, i have a summons coming up. if you try to say this on reddit or another forum they will try gatekeep jury duty. they choose dummies to be on the juries, the smart ones get out of it.

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  • [–] 64 points 1 year ago

    10 Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents, almost all with faces covered, tried to enter the courthouse at 100 Montgomery St. They were there to escort other agents already inside, who had a young immigrant man in custody. ICE has been routinely arresting asylum-seekers following their immigration hearings

    These people are helping immigrants apply to have their hearings held online. Press release on the subject. Spread the word!

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  • [–] 49 points 1 year ago

    Its self defense to stop ICE.

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  • [–] 44 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Im surprised the street gangs or criminal elements in these cities haven’t popped a few ice agents by now

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    If they wear masks and don't identify themselves they are simply a criminal, and you can stand your ground.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    That's why we haven't seen these cowards in Oklahoma. We are allowed to open carry without a license and can stand our ground here. Just waiting for one of these fucks to try this shit here. They will need to bring body bags.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    The only problem with that sort of bravado is that the ICE agents are seldom alone, and it’s a fair bet there are even more waiting as backup in vehicles nearby. If somebody starts shooting at one of them it’s going to stir up a huge hornets nest that will likely result in a significant number of casualties.

    Edit: Oh, and ICE has indeed been operating in Oklahoma to some extent since at least April.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Same in Florida but without open carry. It's on the table, but probably won't fly. Who knows. I didn't care until the Gestapo deployed to non-armed cities and states. Now I fucking want it.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    IIRC, ICE has been told to stay away from neighborhoods that are a bit rough. The American Gestapo are turning the projects into the safer neighborhoods for anyone with skin darker than a suntan.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I think there’s a widespread feeling of anticipation among these groups and other organized factions. Once the first domino falls, it’s going to snowball quickly imo. We haven’t really had the first big incident, but with the almost $200B influx in funding and a seeming lack of willing and capable boots for recruitment, i suspect it will happen quite soon.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    Wonder how this would've gone down if all the protesters were also armed. All. Of. Them.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Plenty of possibilities. Standoff, not happened, bloodbath…. I’m leaning towards “not happened”. These Stasi have proven time and again that they like to go for easy targets that are low risk. Kids in school, women, old people…

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    That's what the police want you to think.

    Look how they handle school shooters. 300+ cops responded to Uvalde, TX, and they just sat around with their thumbs up their asses for hours. Similar in Newtown, CT. Similar in Parkland, FL. Similar in Columbine, CO.

    When there is no real threat, police make a big show of using force. When there is an actual possibility of danger, they find any reason they can to fuck right off. Look at any of the Open Carry protests/demonstrations that have been held throughout the US, or even Cliven Bundy's standoff against the Bureau of Land Management.

    The government is terrified of another Ruby Ridge or Waco. A peaceful exercise of the First Amendment right to assembly, with simultaneous peaceful exercise of the 2nd Amendment is much more effective than either alone.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    And how many times do police just say the person they gunned down was armed, but later shown that the person wasn't armed?

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  • [+] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Somebody's starting to get the point of right to bear arms.

    Remember when it was a common opinion in the left part of the Web that you should defend your rights legally, whatever that would mean if defending rights is usually done against the law trampling them.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is where we need to be.

    Every American needs to be armed and we need to make it extremely clear to the federal government that we're ready and willing to use the 2nd amendment as it was originally intended.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Oh sure. Give the ICE agents a reason to "fear for their lives" so they can justify shooting civilian protesters. It's not there was a bill passed recently the gave ICE unprecedented power to do as they please.

    Once you surrender that particular high ground, there's no going back. It either revolution of capitulation. So here's the question. Are you ready to arm yourself and face the United States military once Trump decides to use protester violence to declare Martial Law?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    If we look at American history, and how the police is dealing with the situations like that, it would've been a mass murder, which would've been later justified by the police as necessary action.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    That's not what happened when the Black Panthers armed themselves. Police only like shooting at people who can't shoot back. And acorns.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Black Panters weren't killed at once in a mass shooting, because they were killed separately in many smaller shootouts throughout, and ultimately the party was destroyed by a massive FBI operation.
    Or did you thought they were successful?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    So what you're saying is is that they should always have been armed and in groups?

    Black Panthers and the civil rights movement won, in large part because of the threat that the cities would end up getting burned to the ground. The emphasis that school classrooms place on MLK jr's peaceful movement is an attempt to discredit violence is the inevitable outcome when peaceful options are denied.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    They were always armed and in groups. Sometimes they were getting into shootouts with the police (1970th police, mind you, the one without tanks), which ultimately led to them dying or running away. That's why FBI was so afraid, they pulled an enormous operation to sabotage them from the inside. They succeeded, so they didn't have to raid them guns blazing, the tactics they never shy about.
    Did civil rights movement won? Yeah, more or less. Did Black Panters won? No, they were all killed, arrested, disbanded. It's hard to tell whether they helped achieving the legislative victory of the civil rights movement, or hindered it.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Cowards. These people are cowards. Unmask and dox these pathetic humans.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You know these people have to sleep at some point.

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