Speechless to old white redneck fucksticks perhaps. To the rest of us she sounds like a goddam American patriot who has the good of THIS fucking country in her heart.
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I 100% get not committing to run right now, it would be stupid to do so.
"In this op-ed that Bezos paid for in The Washington Post, there was a veiled threat — it was the elite saying if you want this job, you just stepped out of line," said Ocasio-Cortez. "What’s funny about that is they assume my ambition is positional. They assume my ambition is a title or a seat. My ambition is way bigger than that. My ambition is to change this country. Presidents come and go, elected officials come and go, single payer healthcare is forever."
But I sure as fuck hope she realizes becoming president is our best shot at that.
Shed drive down ballot races like Obama did, but isn't as cocky and obsessed with personal power to ignore the DNC after winning like Obama did. Shed name a progressive chair.
Bringing in a wave of progressives and putting the party firmly on the progressive side of the divide is absolutely the biggest thing she (or anyone) can do to get us single payer healthcare.
So like I said, hopefully she's planning to run, just smart enough to not say it yet.
I'm not telling her what to do, she's clearly better at this stuff than I'll ever be
I mean this completely seriously:
Not with that attitude.
Maybe without that attitude it's still true, but we need more people than AOC even if they're not "as good"
I mean she's not great. She's probably the weakest among the squad cohort at actually playing the game of politics. She gives a good speech but she regularly gets her ankles broken because she seems to have, like the article demonstrates, a very calculating nature, or at least developed one after sher first two years in Congress.
And that's bad. Like, very bad if you seek higher office, because people are done with the whole not saying what you mean thing.
Many of us are done with saying nothing with meaning thing.
I'm more concerned about how she regularly missteps and misplays moments. She genuinely doesn't have great political instincts and is usually last to the table among her peers when it comes to doing or saying the right thing. It's kind of baffling.
Both Ayana Presley and Ilhan Omar are leagues ahead of being in the right side of issues and leading when things matter the most. AOC trails them on issues.
Like, it's gotten bad to the point where I don't know if AOC could make it through a primary. Her ability to get a question and form an answer that is a good, correct take, the first time, without having to test it. It's not great.
She is so threatening to the Epstein class - so much so that it causes comments like this from “ordinary people”
I mean somewhat. Not nearly as threatening as Ro Khanna though. Someone also who has shown faaaar better political instincts. Ro might be a bit more boring and not as pretty, but they are FAR better at the game compared to AOC, who is a bit of a B student in her class.
It's the unforced errors she keeps piling up that give me the most pause.
Oh, you’re not a serious person. Got it, sorry for wasting my time
I guess you just don't really follow progressive politics.
Go away shill
Who am I schilling for?
Fascism is what it sounds like. Have the day you voted for
What the FUCK are you hallucinating?
AOC has genuinely bad political instincts as a critique of some one who got outflanked in the left by the likes of MTG and because I think the person has work to do, that makes me a fascist?
Just go through and reread this thread and rethink where you are at.
So you want someone stupider, or at least better at seeming like they don't think? I don't think I take your meaning. Politicians are meant to be 'calculating', it's a famously viperous workplace. I prefer one that thinks, and I don't mind if you can tell when they're doing it.
People should be less obsessed with optics, and more oriented towards what politicians do.
Maybe you just don't follow politics much, but this critique of AOC isn't new and we've been getting on her about it for years. Instincts matter in politics, a lot. Getting through a presidential primary is hard.
Just try and notice how your now defending the things that we specifically went out of our way to remove from our politics as progressives, because it's coming from someone you identify with as being in your team.
Look, politicians don't need cheerleaders. They need critics who can make them stronger, and if AOC does want to run, shes got some real issues that have been piling up shell need to address. And yes, this developed tendency to become more and more couched hlin her language, to become more and more politically calculating, it's a real problem.
You’re not wrong. But I also think this point of view is perceived as a kind of auto-fellatio.
I think the negative reaction from us, the great unwashed, is due to people being so sick of political processes devolving into a meta-game that revolves primarily around the ability to think cynically and act tactically.
Meanwhile we’re out in the world, dealing with fallout from actions in that sphere that don’t make any kind of sense to the material reality of most people. People with rent to pay and groceries to afford and gas to pump.
Playing 4-D chess with the law of averages, playing the long game, and cornering other narcissistic kitten-eaters in saying and supporting things that, on their face, sound horrible… We're just not sophisticated enough to understand it’s part of the process. We have problems that need solving right now and whatever tactical victory that moves an abstract chess piece forward doesn’t seem to do anything to remedy that.
I take your points, but we're in the pre primary stage. If that's not the time to be critical if the details, when do we get to be?
Also, it's a political forum. It's supposed to be a safe space for auto fellating in these topics. And maybe I misread or over read, but that auto fellating thing, it's the critique I'm making of AOC too. She become too calculating, too much like Pelosi.
I also think AOC can fix these issues, but they were issues she had 2 years ago too. and they aren't issues her cohort shares, they are unique to her.
Bernie takes hard interviews. Ilhan takes hard interviews. Khanna takes hard interviews.
AOC only goes for softball safe space media opportunities any more. And she's weaker because if it. She can fix that issue and strengthen her game in this regard, but that's on her.
Fair enough points, I can take them at face value. I just grew up very disillusioned with leftist infighting generally, so I tend to see any leftward scrutiny with a jaundiced eye. In a first past the post system, the side that is least critical of their candidate is going to mainly win I feel, and though I know the value of being critical too well, living in this system makes me of two minds about it.
the side that is least critical of their candidate is going to mainly win I feel,
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, and I'm genuinely interested to know how you arrived at it. Like I really want to know how you arrived there.
I'm interested because, I don't think of it as a "sides" issue; what it takes for a Republican/ conservative to win an election and what it takes for a Dem/ progressive to win, they have practically nothing to do with one another. Its two entirely different sets of cohorts you have to appeal to, its two different ways of viewing and thinking about politics and power. I also don't believe that voters exist along a left-right spectrum. I think thats an appealing trope to entrench liberalism, one political class, of which both the Republican and traditional Democratic parties are a part of. So if you think along a unary spectrum to try and understand what people believe, you'll make very serious mistakes when you try to predict their behavior.
In my view, if you are running on the left, its the politician that withstands the most criticism, and stays standing, who is the strongest candidate. Graham Platner or Mamdani is an excellent example of this. And excellent examples of avoiding criticism, Hillary, Biden, Harris, they all led to republican victory. Criticism makes candidates stronger. Allowing them to persist uncritically leaves them, and you if you are they're supporter, vulnerable.
That being said, what it takes for a Democrat to win vs Republican? Absolutely different things. Apples and bananas.
It's a difficult thing to articulate, so I've put off responding. Sorry. I think there's a lot of daylight between how we view the US electorate for one thing - but perhaps not as much as I first thought. You're right that the distinctive difference between left and right-leaning voters is that only one side is highly critical of their candidates and easily falls out of love with them, while the other is a lot more willing to be led and uncritical. That's all pretty much what you'd expect from the research by Dr. Altemeyer on authoritarian personalities.
I do not mean to propose that we should be uncritical of self-styled leftist candidates, only that we should be more willing to forgive. I think of people like Al Franken and (across the pond) Jeremy Corbyn who were doing good things and were successfully ousted based on smears and vibes. I do not mean they are perfect or that we should vote 'blue no matter who', but that we should give grace to people who get smeared because we live in an adverse media environment where billionaire-owned news and social media clearly give preferential treatment to the right, and often silences or viciously smears anyone who might be a problem. And we let them rob us of the voices we need in politics. That's all.
A lot of my thoughts revolve around the game-theoretic implications of elections under FPTP. I feel that the dominant strategy in that 'game' is a bipolar oligarchy of mutually complicit actors who, in lay terms, run a good-cop/bad-cop con on the voter. You see it in the US very clearly, and to a lesser extent in the UK (because it's a different game, and the bipolar tendency is not as strong I think - though the chatter after the recent elections does seem to be reframing things in terms of Green v. Reform as a major upset, so it might just end up being a continuation of the same dynamic under different circumstances).
So in that situation of good cop/bad cop that I see happening, yes different things motivate different voters but - crucially - these two parties are operating on two sides of the same basic con (and I don't think it's a con that necessarily involves deliberate awareness of the con, I just see it as an emergent aspect of this game).
Basically I just hate the game, it needs to change. I don't know how cogent you'll find this, sorry I don't have a lot of time to edit down. Until someone's doing that, I'm going to advocate for being more forgiving. Still critical, but knowing that every time we cut someone loose we're weaker, and they're always stacking the deck against us.
There you go. Bad, weird opinions. You asked!
So like I said, hopefully she's planning to run, just smart enough to not say it yet.
Being a Representative, she's got an entire other election to win between now and the next Presidential election anyway.
Announcing that she plans to go for President (and would therefore be leaving the House) might attract primary challengers.
This headline makes me want to kick someone’s trashcan.
Plus the article itself is primarily dramatic fluff writing, followed by something I loathe: quotations from social media reactions. I'd love for anyone that does like them to share why because I cannot see the utility.
TV news has effectively done the same for as long as I can remember - send a reporter out with a mic and cameraman and ask random people what they thought of current events.
Hey, those interviews are responsible for some of the best memes in history.
We never would have had things like I like turtles, Hide your kids, hide your wife, and wouldn't you like to know weather boy.
That’s my girl.
I have been thinking about the problem with politicians in general: they want to climb, they want positions of power and probably also money. But do they want to make policy even more? As in, for the people? Maybe in the beginning, but at some point, it seems, they all made a deal with the devil.
I hope what she said is an answer to such thoughts.
As a European this is how I read it too. Politics in the US are so driven by "team sport" and grand personalities the actual policy sometimes gets forgotten. "He says what I think" and "I've always voted for party X." are very common arguments and you may occasionally hear about some wedge issue, but really understanding how these people would govern?
AOC has policy goals and fight for them regardless of her title. If she thinks she can there as President she will run, if not she will do something else.
I'd vote for her. I'd also vote for Bernie again, if he ran again. I don't care about his age, all that would matter is he got into office, and established a cabinet, and had a good Vice President to take over.
I'd door-knock for her.
Sheesh, and I haven't canvased for a candidate in almost 20 years.
Bernie is 84 years old.
I am a huge fan of Bernie. Have been for over a decade. He is too old to be the president.
He's also incredibly sharp for 84....but he's 84...
He'll be 86 at the next election.
As president you get way more stress, more travel, less sleep. He wouldn't do well in the president's office.
Shouldn't be getting downvotes for this. Bernie deserves to rest, he's been saying the same message for decades and it's up to us to make it better for him, now.
That's the same thing everybody said last time and Bernie is in better physical, mental, and psychological condition than Trump.
Of course, and because of that he would never win an election, because people won't vote for him because "he's too old". Like I said, I don't care about his age, or that he would likely die in office, perhaps even in the first year. I'd still vote for him, because I agree with him, and I want his ideas in that office. That's why he'd need a good V.P. I don't understand why anyone would care how old he is, as long as they agree with him. Is it because he would probably die in office? Why does that matter?
I don't care about Trump's age per se, I do care that he's got dementia. Bernie doesn't have dementia.
Anyway, it's a pipe dream, and I'll happily vote for one of his protégés, too.
The point of Bernie or AOC or Zohran or any socialist candidate is the movement behind them, which represents the will of the masses. The actual figurehead is largely irrelevant because everything they do is in the interest of their constituents. They might use their charisma to win (but usually it's the movement that actually wins the campaign), but once they're in power they just have to fulfill their promises, and they have staff to do this.
A regular politician, by contrast, enacts the will of the corporate class. In this way they're mostly irrelevant too.
More importantly, he's too old, and not aggressive enough, to win. We need someone that knows how to build and run a political machine, that can seize control of the party and purge the old guard. A true populist that can play a crowd. Bernie unfortunately lacks the killer instinct to overcome the establishment.
Bernie for president and AOC for vice president? That'd be something.
IF he died in office, the position likely would be taken good care of
I love Bernie, but he's terrible at choosing staff. I don't want him as president because I think he'd lose the war after winning the battle of gaining the presidency. Now if my choices were orange shit stain or Bernie, I'd be pulling out all my Bernie merch, but he's not ideal.
Jesus, the Tad Devine hire alone was a disqualification for me.
UAW Boss Sean Fein would be a good candidate.
Well they need to get out and start doing media now. Regardless, a successful candidate is going to have to out in hundreds of hours in front of cameras and developing a level of comfort and ease of answering questions that only comes with practice and putting in the hours. It's also one of my biggest critiques of AOC. She also hasn't/isn't putting in the reps in terms of media cycles. When they do, it's very controlled and brief.
You are a fascist.
Explain how.
Explaim how you complain to management to get your critiics cancelled? You gave your hand away.
What did you get banned for being a gif hating loser in the other thread? I would never report you for being that kind of a loser; it's far more fun to just mock you relentlessly when you have a psychological moment like that. Which was truly fun and brightened my day, so I do want to say thanks and I appreciate your participation. It was probably some one who agreed with me on how silly you were being that reported you. I would never do that, it's far more entertaining to have you staying in the game.
For your participation yesterday, I sincerely appreciate it:

Now, into the comment at hand..
You can be and should be a critic of me but you should also have the charity to take my arguments on their face. I think AOC is mid among current progressives and I've outlined why several times in this thread. I can reiterate those points if you like and we can take it from there.
ha ha, you are pathetic.
And I think you've developed a personality disorder.
The amount of work you have put into trolling me speaks for itself. Fucking pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourself why don't you go back in the mirror and practice making fearsome faces. Haha,
When you enjoy what you do, it's not work.
Well clearly trolling is your calling. Is it pathetic? Yes. Hahaha.
Bruh you responded to me. You could just go about your merry way but you pd won't allow it.
Ha ha, pathetic.
The world is mine! But piss off, you are pathetic. I will get to that.

It's fine, I don't mind supporting or interacting with fans
You said that what but your actions belie your words. And you are fucking pathetic. Ha ha ha, enjoy your off-brand Aussie fucking circle jerk. All 1k of you. Maybe you can wake up? Haha.
She has work to do, because if she ran right now, she'd get eaten alive.
Notice that AOC doesn't do very many hard interviews, and that when she gets a question asked of her that she isn't prepared for, she stumbles.
AOC has been basically absent from leftwing media while plenty of other very solid progressives are out there putting in reps doing hard interviews in combative environments. AOC doesn't do that and is only does very controlled media opportunities. That's not good for someone who wants to be president. I don't think she's done the time like others have to be able to weather a primary.
AOC doesn't do very many hard interviews
Define "hard". If you mean antagonistic, that's because she wisely tries not to waste too much time and energy boosting the false narratives of the billionaire-owned mass media that bear a lot of the blame for how things got awful enough for fascism to return.
she gets a question asked of her that she isn't prepared for, she stumbles
As do pretty much anyone. Which is why she and most competent politicians make sure to be prepared for all possible pertinent questions.
It still depends btw: do you call refusing to entertain a deliberately false narrative "stumbling"?
AOC has been basically absent from leftwing media
That's a bit of an exaggeration but she's not made herself available as much as for example Ro Khanna, I'll give you that.
Ro and most of the ones making that many media appearances don't seem as genuine and principled, though.
Whether that's due to the sheer volume of gotcha questions or because they ARE less principled, that's not a good look to the ones they need to reach.
hard interviews in combative environments
AKA contributing to disinformation by accepting their clickbait false narratives as legitimately in the interest of the people.
AOC doesn't do that and is only does very controlled media opportunities.
Yeah, imagine preferring to talk about the REAL issues rather than how everyone to the left of Ronald Reagan are either immature children or dangerous radicals 🙄
That's not good for someone who wants to be president.
I'd argue the exact opposite. If you mud wrestle with a pig, the pig beats you with experience and you get filthy no matter how well you do.
I don't think she's done the time like others have to be able to weather a primary
Dude. The way she ENTERED politics was by going from volunteering for Bernie to unseating a 10-term incumbent who was the third ranking Dem representative in two years!
She has since easily beaten more right wing Dems favored by the DNC in primaries twice (and won unopposed except for the Republican nominee once).
If anyone knows how to beat overwhelming odds and win against the experienced establishment favorite, it's her.
Fox news, Piers Morgon, are both very antogonistic as examples, and I would list Zeteo, any interview with Medhi or Pratt as a hard interview (I personally think Medhi is one of the bester interviewers in medi, hands down).
It's not a matter of it being time wasting, it's a matter of putting in reps and communicating a message. It's about rhetoric and convincing an audience. Bernie finds time for those audiences. Ro Khanna finds time for those audiences. Ilhan finds time for those interviews. And go read the comments under those interviews: MAGA trust Bernie and Ro more than they do most of their own Republicans because Bernie and Ro have put in the reps, done the laps.
And to volley the question back over the net, why does AOC get an accountability pass when all the rest of her squad cohort don't suffer from this same issue? Its not like they aren't effective or productive members of Congress, I'd argue quite the opposite. It was not the Cortesse-Massie bill that got the Epstein files released it wash the Khanna Massie bill that did, and Ro found ample time to take his messages and arguments before the people while doing so.
It still depends btw: do you call refusing to entertain a deliberately false narrative "stumbling"?
Let's take the example I gave. AOC got asked by dropsite if she supported her former chief of staff who is trying to oust Pelosi in California. A fairly gentle question from a friendly source about litterally the person who helped get you into Congress. And she fumbled it. Badly. In a way that should give any progressive pause.
When Ilhan Omar was attacked by a maga supporter at a recent event she didn't back down. She litterally got in the attackers face in a way that should have made national headlines. We're she running for another seat, it would have.
It's fair to juxtapose AOC against her cohort, and she is at the back of that pack in my view. The pack is still leagues ahead of other Democrats but that's beside the point, because now is when we need to make these evaluations.
I'd argue the exact opposite. If you mud wrestle with a pig, the pig beats you with experience and you get filthy no matter how well you do.
I think your an utter fool to believe you can get away from hard interviews. I will not support a candidate who can't handle the pressure of a campaign or read the room or the moment. That's how you get "Please clap." Jeb, and "Nothing would fundamentally change Harris".
These politicians are not your children. It's not your job to protect them. They need to be held up and have their mettle tested before we need to rely upon them to be a backstop against fascism, not after.
You not only have to be able to get jnto the mud and learn to wrestle with the pigs, you need to be able to do so and win. I'm not interested in someone who hasn't put the time in to win dirty fights.
The candidate will have to face down Tucker Carlson or Candice Owens, or any one of the innumerable shit birds who have piled up on the right.
Dude. The way she ENTERED politics was by going from volunteering for Bernie to unseating a 10-term incumbent who was the third ranking Dem representative in two years!
Yeah and for the first two years she was a fire brand. Then something happened and she became far more reserved and calculating. She genuinely changed after getting iced by Pelosi for occupying her office. I think it impacted her and she shifted her approach.
I need to see her taking harder more competitive interviews. I need to see her all over leftwing media and safe space interviews. I need to see her in spaces where her team doesn't control the questions getting asked.
Because there are other progressives who had just as difficult if not more difficult fights than AOC has had, and they don't seem to have a problem taking in those battles.
But to be fair, when is the last time that is there wasn't a softball interview or debate? A huge portion of the US population have never seen a real debate lol
There have been softball interviews and debate for liberal/conservative/fascist candidates the corpos like. Leftist candidates, on the other hand, get a hostile treatment or get ignored entirely.
Bernie takes hard debates ALLL THE TIME and uncle is strong because if it.
Ro Khanna also. They take every media call they can and because of that they are very comfortable getting asked tough questions.
AOC got a softball from dropsite about endorsing her former chief of staff who is challenging Pelosi, and she dropped the ball in an utter what the fuck moment.
You gotta be tough to stand up to nonstop events and pressers and interviews that come with a campaign. AOC genuinely hasn't been putting in the reps and it shows.
It's really great to see one of our politicians answer questions as if they were actually a public servant concerned with the good of the country. I mean, obviously.
But it's equally tragic how unique it is for a politician to answer like that, and how many people in her own party (in addition to 99% of Republicans) will assume it is BS political talking points to suggest that somebody is serving a high profile political position for any reason other than blind personal ambition.




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