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[–] 78 points 6 months ago* (8 children)

Just license them in accordance with their capabilities. All the bad press about ebikes lately is running cover for government negligence over lack of normalizing them into existing licensing frameworks, on behalf of the automotive lobby that knows if these vehicles aren't given an appropriate legal niche they will instead end up being seen by society as dangerous scofflaws and ultimately banned or legistalted out of practicality.

Use your brains. Ask why the discussion doesn't revolve around appropriate licensure and infrastructure, and instead revolves around how to get rid of them.

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  • [–] 29 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    IL has a L license for motorcycles under 150cc, no reason not to have a kwH rating for it.

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  • [+] 4 points 6 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    State laws around low power two wheel vehicles are all over the place, and mostly leftover from the two stroke moped era of the 70s and early 80s. So none of it really makes sense anymore.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    The laws are varied, but from what I can tell only three states don’t have definitions for e-bikes: AL, AK, GA. Most adhere to federal guidelines of 750W and Class 1+2 while others also permit Class 3. Several allow up to 1000W. The tl;dr is a <=750W Class 1 is allowed pretty much anywhere whereas a Class 3 may have additional requirements or be unpermitted.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    That’s what I thought as well yet I see what are essentially electrically powered off-road motorcycles everywhere. There’s no enforcing the sales end of it, which I guess means it’s up to local law enforcement?

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    A 110cc motorbike can do 60 mph, theres a fundamental difference between that and a souped up ebike doing 30.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Yes but the souped up e-bikes doing 30 need regulation as well. Maybe not by placing them into an existing category where they don’t fit but some of these rigs out here are freaking ridiculous and ruining it for everyone.

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  • [+] 51 points 6 months ago* (5 children)
  • [–] 14 points 6 months ago

    I've got a skateboard and unicycle myself, I think all these things are great, but you've highlighted the big problems that exist today. It's the kids that have no sense, whip by people walking, being ignorant to traffic rules, etc.

    I watched 2 kids on a gravel path whip by on escooters past a 5 year old swaying back and forth on a pedal bike as he was obviously trying to learn. That could have gotten bad.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I agree with all of your points. However, in California, ebikes are already regulated:

    https://riding5.com/blogs/news/california-ebike-laws-class-1-2-3

    The only "wild west" thing happening is that some people are riding illegal, (they're already illegal. We don't need new laws) unregistered electric motorcycles. The 30+ mph "ebikes" you refer to: those are motorcycles.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    It’s really a shame. Ebikes are amazing and have the potential to really bring bicycling to the masses. But these jackasses riding motocross rock hoppers down the sidewalk are going to ruin it for everybody.

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  • [–] 38 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    I've put 4000 miles on my e-bike in the past 2 years. Even though I follow traffic laws, I've seen far too much fuckery by other e-bike riders. I'm seeing children riding e-bikes and scooters, without helmets, doing crazy shit in the middle of the road almost cause accidents. I have narrowly avoided hitting such children on 3 separate occasions. I see plenty of adults on these things also not following traffic laws and riding these things on busy sidewalks.

    I really do not want e-bikes to be regulated like cars. Being forced to register and carry insurance makes an inexpensive thing expensive. That being said, there are tons of dumb assholes out there that will ruin it for the rest of us.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Registering is fine, a lot of people voluntarily register their expensive bikes with local police that have those programs anyway.

    Insurance is weirder. Cars require as much insurance as they do because they weigh multiple tons and can kill people and destroy infrastructure. A powered bike can do a lot of damage, especially if it rams someone, but it has an order of magnitude less destructive potential than a car. Especially for a limited powered bike insurance "should" be significantly cheaper.

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (16 children)

    While my knee-jerk reaction was that they're going to over regulate, all those changes are already in effect in the EU and it didn't destroy the e-bike market there. So I guess California will manage.

    Class 2 and 3 requiring license plates makes sense to me.

    And class 1 would be pedelecs in the EU, where they are capped at 250 Watt and 25 kmh. Class 1 being capped at 750 Watt and 16mph (25kmh) seems okay, might be inconvenient with how much further apart everything is over there, but reaction times are the same all over the globe.

    I personally don't even drive the full 25kmh, in the city I'm capped by the manual cyclists in front, which I don't need to overtake. And outside I'm too worried about my battery to go full power. I will say, cargo bikes in particular could use a higher powered motor than the 250 Watts we have here, but I have no idea what a good cap would be.

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  • [+] -5 points 6 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    Then get a more powerful electric bike and a motorcycle license? Or perhaps don't go out of your way to annoy other road users, have you considered that as an alternative?

    The idea is that someone without proven traffic knowledge and experience shouldn't be able to zoom to 50 km/h in 2 seconds. Plus with that kind of speed available on tap, you become a danger to pedestrians so it makes sense to require a license plate so it'd actually be possible to find you if you fuck someone up and decide to escape.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    Or perhaps don’t go out of your way to annoy other road users

    There are basically two ways that bicyclists annoy motor vehicle drivers and wind up being threatened with deadly force on the regular:

    1. By following the rules

    2. By not following the rules

    I hope this clears things up.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    I mean if you read that particular user's other comments, I'm pretty sure they try to swerve into cars and pedestrians on purpose. There was a comment saying it's basically ok to take your 40 km/h+ e-bike into pedestrians in San Francisco because they're tourists and therefore must've taken a plane there, making them as bad as car drivers.

    FWIW I'm a driver and never have I felt like running a cyclist off the road. I also used to cycle and never did anyone try to run me off the road. This whole issue is pretty USA-specific IMO.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    He doesn't seem like such a nice fellow online here. I don't think that means he tries to hurt people in real life.

    I'm glad you haven't experienced the rage that drivers often express towards cyclists. I don't think its exclusively a US problem.

    I've been riding bikes and driving cars for 30 years. It seems to me that any circumstance that requires drivers to slow down and consider how to respond to other people's needs is a guaranteed rage trigger -- for some fraction of the driving public. That seems to be carrying over into electric bikes as well.

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  • [+] -3 points 6 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    I never said that. I just said that if you want a vehicle that's fast enough to use as a getaway vehicle when you smash someone's window in or something, you should be prepared to live with the consequences and have a visible license plate on it. If you want zero consequences for your actions, like the ability to literally kick someone's shit in and then just leg it without anyone catching you since there's no license plate... Be prepared to be limited to a lower speed.

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  • [+] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    No, it's not. If you want a fast getaway vehicle for whatever crime you're planning, it's illegal to not have a license plate. Boo fucking hoo.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Accelerating out of danger is both a last resort, and mostly ineffective. By the time you realize you need to accelerate, it's too late in almost every case. Also, in any situation where accelerating might help, braking would probably help as well. The entire argument that vehicles of any type need more power to be able to accelerate out of danger is mostly BS, as anyone who drives, or rides responsibly can see.

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  • [+] -1 points 6 months ago (2 children)
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  • [+] -7 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    You're thinking on the right questions..

    It took years, but finally I realized the appropriate threshold is simply to have people go on an exercize-bike/meter, for a 90-minute-session, & have them sustain what they can, for that duration, then multiply their RMS-output ( root-mean-square rounds-down ) by 3x, & make that THEIR motor-limit:

    This means that you don't get flimsy 50-lbs children with 750-w of bike-motor, & you also don't hobble linebackers ( I think that's what they're called: NFL tackles? ) with the same limit you're putting on small/flimsy ones.

    Proportionate to the strength you wield when managing your own body, see?

    So, for many reasonably-strong riders, it'd be .. around 300-w, tbh..

    Alot of people would hate me for making the limit sooo close to their own physical-strength, but .. live longer.

    & simply make another limit, higher, & require license-plate for that category.

    I'd make it so that within the 25-kph & 3x-sustained-90-minutes-wattage, no license-plate is required: you get a photo-ID card which says you don't need a plate.

    More power, more speed? then you need a plate.

    Some cities need 40-kph to do the parkways, & that'd have to be one of the limits.

    60-kph would be needed for other parkways, but that'd be absolute-limit, & some body-armor would be reasonable at that speed ( since crash-energy goes up with the square of the speed ).

    Having been a courier, I'd put an either-speed-XOR-weight limit on them, so the fast-light people can get that, but the heavy-cargo couriers get a slower-speed, .. I"m not the only courier who discovered that it's .. an experience that many couriers have had .. to discover that one has been biking, in traffic, while unconscious. Sleep-biking. And I want that NOT happening at high-speed.

    So, this is all like graduated-licensing, but done vertically, instead of temporally.

    _ /\ _

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Um, no.

    Hi, we're disabled.

    Don't try to restrict us from using stuff that helps bypass the disability, thanks.

    -- Frost

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  • [–] -1 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not tying to restrict you from using stuff that helps bypass disability.

    I'm trying to have more-likely-to-kill-someone behaviors more-licensed.

    Ignore that distinction if your ideology wants..

    _ /\ _

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    No, what you're doing is tying people's speed to what their specific body can produce rather than what is safe. Those are two very different things.

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  • [–] 0 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Not what I meant:

    I'm tying power to the power that the bicyclist can naturally produce.

    I'm tying speed to licensing-level, because crash-energy goes up with the square of the speed.

    Physically-weak? THEN small-motor.

    Linebacker? THEN huge-motor.

    Speeds are tied to licensing.

    I'm not tying speed to body-force, I'm tying it to licensing-level/competence-carefulness.

    Don't know how I fucked-up the communication so bad, but sorry.

    _ /\ _

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Okay, but you're still talking like tying power to people's body energy output is a good thing. Speed, power, whatever, limiting our machine capability just because our body is limited (preventing working around disability) is an asshole move.

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    [–] 14 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    E-bikes are already capped at 25km/h here. Aren't they elsewhere?

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    In the US e-bikes that can reach 60 mph — which is 96.5 km/h — without peddling are starting to become common, especially with children. They are motorcycles.

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  • [–] 11 points 6 months ago

    Those aren't e-bikes by any legal definition, they just look like e-bikes because they have some technically functional pedals.

    E-bikes are categorized into three primary groups based on factors such as motor power, availability of pedal and/or throttle assist and maximum speeds. Familiarizing yourself with the e-bike class allows you to anticipate its performance characteristics. Depending on the class, certain areas may permit riding a Class 1 e-bike while prohibiting the use of a Class 3 e-bike for instance. These regulations vary across states with many states having their own e-bike classifications or lack thereof. California, for example, has legislation specifying three e-bike classes. There are generally accepted definitions for e-bike classes, and we provide an overview of these standard classifications below.

    Class 1

    A Class 1 e-bike, also known as a pedelec, relies on pedaling to propel forward. It features pedal assist but lacks throttle assist, limiting its speed to a maximum of 20 miles per hour. In most cases, Class 1 e-bikes are permitted in the same areas as traditional bicycles such as bike paths and bike lanes. However, the specific regulations governing their usage depend on local government ordinances.

    Class 2

    Class 2 e-bikes offer both pedal assist and throttle assist, allowing them to move forward even without pedaling. Generally, Class 2 e-bikes are not designed to exceed 20 mph. Many jurisdictions allow the use of Class 2 e-bikes on conventional bike paths and lanes.

    Class 3

    Class 3 e-bikes are slightly faster, reaching speeds of up to 28 mph. They often come equipped with a speedometer, which may be required in certain states like California. Class 3 e-bikes are typically permitted on roads and designated bike-only shoulder lanes. However, due to their higher power output, they are generally not allowed on standard bike lanes, paths or trails.

    https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/carbapps/ebikeincentives/e-bike-basics/index.html

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  • [–] 13 points 6 months ago* (5 children)

    As if dozens of bros on dirt bikes and quads roaming about weren't enough, you have these dumb kids getting their hands on souped-up "e-bikes" where pedals are but an afterthought. These hellions are giving other e-bike riders, including people relying on pedal assist, a bad rep.

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  • [+] -4 points 6 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    You need a license for those, which requires, at least in sane countries, pretty extensive training. Bicycles require zero training. Hence, electrically assisted bicycles should be limited to sane speeds. If you want it to be faster, it's legally a motorcycle and you need training and accountability (license plate). It's not that complex. Nobody's banning faster e-mobility, you just need to prove you know how to handle it. Just like with the pollution machines...

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  • [+] -5 points 6 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago

    But of course you ARE that obese cunt, so why would i expect objectivity from you am I right, fatzo?

    I probably weigh more than you, yes. Majority of it, by weight, is muscle mass. In fact I probably have more muscle mass than you have body weight, flab and all. Put it this way, you claim to need a fast electric bicycle to get away from whatever bullshit you pull to make people angry, I could just run away if I punched you in the face for being a cunt to someone and you couldn't catch me without your pwecious wittwe ewectwic bikey-wikey.

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  • [–] 25 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    Reading what the law actually says, these seem to be sensible changes, bringing the rules in line with European standards.

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  • [–] 8 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah, works pretty well over here.

    It's about expected speed and who you're sharing a path with.

    If I'm a cyclist, I don't want to share a cycle lane with some idiot doing 40mph on a Temu deathtrap. By all means have those as an alternative to cars and petrol motorbikes (because cheap transport is still transport), but you'll need regulations, registration plates, and mandatory safety equipment, and they need to share the road with other vehicles.

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  • [+] [S] 0 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Does it matter if the coo knows or not? If they do something stupid and get stopped, the cop will realize and fine them for not being registered.

    You can also drive around in a car without a license and a cop would never know unless you drove stupidly and they pulled you over.

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  • [–] 20 points 6 months ago (11 children)

    It's not that bad. Little accountability never hurt anyone!

    If I had to have a dismissive opinion though, if the license plates do not increase safety and reduce bike thefts, then it's just another meaningless cog on the machine.

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  • [+] -18 points 6 months ago (10 children)
  • [+] 5 points 6 months ago (10 children)
  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (9 children)

    I'm not the commenter you're replying to, I'm just a stranger who likes to play devil's advocate.

    Last summer I visited San Francisco, and there were a bunch of e-bikes around. One almost plowed into me in the walkway at Golden Gate Park. It looked like it was going faster than all cars on the road next to us at the time. The guy was not wearing a helmet, didn't honk any kind of a horn or ring a bell, and barely called out a warning. It was a near miss, right after he swerved around the people in front of me.

    I was looking up at the trees in the park (as you do in parks), when I hear a slight scream from one of the pedestrians in front of me, followed by a frantic "LOOK OUT" from the guy on the bike. I quickly stepped off the walkway onto the gras, so no accident happened, but it was still scary.

    I can see the reasoning behind this law. There's no reason that the motor on that bike should go that fast without requiring inspections and some kind of license. Certainly no reason to be driving it that fast in a walkway, but I think that's already illegal.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago*

    As someone who's lived in San Francisco, the Bay Area has some of the all-time worst drivers bar none. Driving in the city is like Mad Max; there are seemingly no laws and it's every man for himself. Then out in the suburbs it's just people who are actively bad drivers. Gonna get tagged for this, but there might be a racial component to it. I once saw a Lexus driving around the East Bay with skis mounted to the roof horizontally (not that that is bad driving per se, but I think illustrates the type of drivers we have.)

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  • [+] -12 points 6 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    That person was literally walking though?

    walkway at Golden Gate Park

    I was looking up at the trees in the park (as you do in parks)

    hear a slight scream from one of the pedestrians in front of me

    I quickly stepped off the walkway

    I guess pedestrians are also disgusting polluters to you?

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  • [+] -4 points 6 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    How does someone flying make them in any way dangerous in traffic, compared to someone who rides an unlimited speed electric motorcycle on a pedestrian walkway though?

    I do hope you at least keep your money where your mouth is and only take bikes everywhere, even if it's several hundred or thousand miles.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Don't get me wrong, I think the proposed legislation is taking the wrong approach and I think e-bikes are overall a good thing. I'm just saying that I see the reason why California wants to add some additional regulation to a motorized transport.

    I have no problem with people riding regular bikes on sidewalks. Roads are scary as a cyclist surrounded by vehicles several times heavier than yours. People are riding e-bikes on the sidewalks everywhere I go. It makes walking scary on infrastructure made for walking. If you get hit by someone on a bike going 20 mph (~32 km/hr), someone is getting seriously hurt. This guy was actively endangering pedestrians.

    Also, no matter how you look at it, e-bikes (individualized transport) are a worse thing for the environment than public transportation (communal transport), and certainly worse than walking (what I was doing in the walkway).

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  • [+] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    I'm whining about someone swinging a bat at people on the sidewalk while the whole neighborhood is on fire. The fire is a worse problem, and we should take care of it before it burns down everything. But someone should really take that bat away from that guy or at least replace it with a wiffle ball bat before someone gets hurt.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago (10 children)

    I'd say stick a 30mph limit as a cutoff for needing to be licensed, with anything above that to just be considered a scooter (the 49cc kind that need licensed but aren't allowed on freeways) and anything faster than that a motorcycle, and be done with it.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    30mph is FAST, A 49cc moped is going to be able to hit a top speed of 30 miles per hour.

    I'd say a speed limit for no licensing/registration/insurance should be 15mph. Thats about the speed an average cyclist would be able to go without electronic assists.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 months ago (5 children)

    I can do 30+ on a road bike, and you can get a 49cc scooter to 40. The ones that cap at 30 are big or have limiters put on them. 30 is pretty fast, but not crazy fast. My little brother has a tricked out Onewheel that he races. It does 40mph. Now that's crazy fast.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    You're sustaining 30 for over an hour on a road bike solely by pedaling? I didn't know we had olympians in the comments

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    You are misreading that he said he could keep it up for an hour

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  • [–] 23 points 6 months ago* (2 children)

    I’m a bicyclist and a motorcyclist.

    The bicyclists who act like a weekend class and a street safety test are an existential threat are full of it.

    Yes, it IS possible to get licenses for things.

    Having a plate on what’s a motorcycle in all but name is good for safety.

    The number of people ripping along on bicycle and foot paths at 30mph+ has gotten insane. Even ignoring that, the number of single vehicle accidents on e-bikes has gone exponential.

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