Viewpoint from the other side of the discussion:
post
We're currently discussing how we will proceed with this situation
Block the mod on your personal list, don't defederate?
It was not a mod, it was the full-on admin team. Hence defederation rather than mere blocking.
This is honestly pathetic. If the admins want to have an argument at least leave everyone else out of it. Defederation should be an absolute last resort not your first port of call when someone disagrees with you
Well, in this case it seems really out of place to defederate. But otherwise i like to think that defederation is something that you could use more than in last resort : yes it breaks the network, but the network should also work as broken, that's one of the strenght of federation to me. I'm not a technical person and still a newbie, so i might be missing important bits, don't hesitate to correct me if this is the case, but i felt like sharing another point of view.
100%
It's always admin drama that leads to this. Look at any of the major instance defederations and it is always a disagreement that isn't resolved because the egos of the admins involved almost immediately turn the conversation into 'agree with me or else' instead of any kind of real dialog.
In this case, the person calling for murder in their username was removed as an admin so the issue seems resolved.
Defederating violent antisemites is 100% resonable. You cannot call for violence against people for perceived Zionism. Instance admins included.
So ban that user, you don't need to defederate an entire instance over it even if they are an admin (unless they use their admin privileges to circumvent the ban). And they're not even an admin anymore
dbzer0 admin policy supports and encouages this behavior. That is why they must be defederated. Their instance policy promotes antisemitic violence.
I am confused. If the admin in question is no longer an admin, what's the need for defederation?
Because this was their goal and the admins was just the excuse they're using to get rid of another instance world can see
Lmao wait, there are conspiracy theorists on lemmy?
I'd call it less "conspiracy theory" and more "a history of .world's administration", personally.
Yeah but also usually just stay on lemmy.world and piefed
defederation was done while this person was still an admin
Will the two instances work to refederate now that the (former) admin is no longer in power?
No the Lemmy.world admins continue to vigorously project their insecurities.
The current admins continue to vigorously defend the admin who resigned.
Just to be clear, so do the users.
This behavior from .world is why I left it in the first place.
Given your comments on here, I'm also now glad I didn't decide to join piefed.social when I was excited to try out piefed. Its pretty disappointing.
Anyway, I'll go ahead and point out that an admin getting banned for self-proclaimed support of Zionism is completely appropriate. Defederating an instance with an edgy bit in their profile is completely inappropriate.
This behavior was brought by the same people who tried to push "Everyone's opinion is valid, no matter how horrible, you'll just have to talk through it or you'll be banned", which they later backtracked on.
So this is entirely what I would expect of @MrKaplan@lemmy.world. Your behavior is a bit of surprise to me, but now I know, so at least there is that.
No they're not Rimu, you're wildly misrepresenting reality.
They're attacking the defederation and saying that Kaplan overreacted. Some think that Lum went too far, others do not, but it is not the consistent opinion that you make it out to be.
It's filled with antisemitic users. Who use anti-Zionism to cover up their blatant antisemitic slanting.
Zionism is an antisemitic belief.
I see. Thank you for clarifying; the timing was unclear in the original post.
But they're not of dbzer0. So where is your justification for claiming that you are talking about defederating with them? Oh right. Literally none.
Is there an instance policy that affects dot world?
Or is it just a personal issue against one person?
I would argue that you should just ban THAT PERSON from your instance. Trying to hurt a whole instance and the whole federation concept over one person being rude on internet feels unreasonable.
People said "doesn't matter which instance you land on when you sign in", trying to lure people into the fediverse simplifying the sign in process. But with these kinds of behaviors is a BIG ISSUE which instance do you choose, making you create multiple accounts on a fragmented fediverse, for things that have nothing to do with you.
How many migrations could normal people who just want to have a social media place to have fun endure? One? Two? Three? After that I would guess many people would give up and just move away from the fediverse because they just have to keep making different accounts to interact with the whole place.
It is a personal issue against that one person. That one person is no longer an admin of anarchist.nexus and isn't an admin of dbzer0. Thus why this is, undeniably, a personal vendetta and quest by Kaplan.
There is a lot to unpack here, but first and foremost, your statement contains numerous inaccuracies - e.g. it's not merely one user it is an admin - but also I notice it contains numerous instances of inflammatory language, e.g. "Trying to hurt a whole instance and the whole federation concept". AN can feel absolutely free to do whatever it pleases, so why shouldn't LW have the same rights, to block calls for literal and actual irl murder levied in their direction? Also, this is hardly the first time that one instance has defederated from another instance - this tiny blip won't even be noticed by the vast majority of people on LW.
But if you do want to talk about "hurting" someone, I find myself hard pressed to think about a worse fate than to be literally and actually irl murdered, genocided by someone who feels no remorse at all about killing off your entire family, just so that you will suffer?
And you are not even on LW, nor AN - this will not impact you personally in the slightest?
doesnβt matter which instance you land on when you sign in
Please stop spreading this. Whoever said this was incorrect. As you yourself claim, it matters a great deal to pick an instance. So pick one that aligns with your values, so that the moderation practices are those that you can live with. Otherwise, pick a different instance - such as lemmy.dbzer0.com - that you may prefer better. Also, people did not migrate away from Lemm.ee due to its restrictive moderation practices - so if you were claiming this then that would be disinformation. Although it is a strong argument that its LENIENT moderation practices were what led to its downfall, where zero admins across the entirety of all the billions of people on planet Earth could be found that were willing to put up with all the crap spewn in their direction. But this stance only weakens your own argument further, claiming that now LW should do the same as lemm.ee, and thereby end up with the same result?
If you want to do whatever you want, then start your own instance. The LW admins did precisely that, and they do not appreciate having calls for their murder put out by AN. It is their right to defederate from them if they please.
Also, we are still here. Anyone at any time may go to Reddit or X or Bluesky if they prefer, but we will remain. That is our choice. Speaking of choices, where is your acknowledgement of the other side of this - you are chiding the LW admin team, but why not (also?) chide those of AN, who routinely call for murder of people in Western civilizations? If anyone is "fragmenting the Threadiverse", don't you think that calls for actual, physical irl murder might be at least partway a cause for such a fragmentation effect? The LW team did not take this action lightly nor did it come out of nowhere - AN was the one that started this? And now LW has to determine its own response in turn.
jesus. there is no point to drastic moderation at all. 3-day individual bans implemented at the drop of a hat curbs bad behavior. after a year of those no one is 1) still causing problems or 2) even around.
anything more dramatic than this will cause people to exploit the sybil attack vulnerability of activitypub and you will never stop anyone.
Zionism is bad tho
Zionism is bad, Ethnonationalism is bad, Murder is bad, War crimes are bad, Genocide is bad, Racism is bad
Many of the people involved in this conversation are toxic assholes who need to touch grass.
The Jewish people having a homeland where we are safe is not bad. Saying it is is antisemitic as fuck. Jewish people are oppressed and in danger all over the world. We deserve a home to feel safe in.
The home you want was stolen from someone else. Palestinians deserve their land and to not be genocided by 20th century colonisers.
Jewish people live in safety all over the world, far more safety than in a country that routinely puts it citizens in harms way via committing wars of conquest and slaughter.
It was our ancestral home which was stolen from us after centuries of antisemitic violence.
That's fine, but zionism is not only that. The problem is kicking out everybody else and/or stripping them off the rights you afford yourselves. If zionism only meant "Jews move to places they feel safe" nobody would have a problem
Hey there, Kaplan.
So, this is quite clearly now just a witch hunt by you.
For anyone else who is curious, this is what happened.
A user by the name of Luminous was an admin on Anarchist.nexus. They banned MrKaplan from a community for posting zionist apologia. Luminous also had 'Kill all Zionists' as their display name. MrKaplan took this as a personal death threat. Instead of speaking with any other admin from Anarchist.nexus and reporting the behavior, MrKaplan instantly defederated from Anarchist.nexus.
In the next couple of days, Kaplan messaged other users/admins of Lemmy about the defederation and suggested defederation to others as well.

It was then posted about in the Piefed matrix channel. This led to PugJesus, someone who I abhor, actually saying something I agree with.


The conversation moves elsewhere. One bit of input that stands out is this. It will become important in a second.

In basically every situation, Kaplan is told that they're wrong or overreacting but Kaplan cannot see past the 'death threat' to their own mistake.
So, I messaged Kaplan. Conversation goes on and one thing is made clear

Kaplan never spoke with anyone and ran all of this off of an assumption. There was inconsistencies in how the different people felt because they were different people and not one organism. What was individuality instead came off as obliviousness and Kaplan took it personaly. See what I mean by it became important? Kaplan is talking about a 'lack of moderation' over something that Kaplan literally never reported or talked to anyone about and instead just made assumptions over.
@Ruud@lemmy.world, this is what you're backing. You went out of your way to make an instance that wasn't going to be reddit and you went ahead and re-created Spez, an admin who personally takes out their own feelings on anyone that they don't like and is trying to control the narrative of the entirety of the fediverse.
Friendly reminder to everyone. Check back a couple of months ago on this community and look at the post about JordanLund. A moderator who was openly lying to the admins in public but the admins took weeks to decide to do literally nothing. But a single user on another instance meant that MrKaplan was able to defederate it all.
This behavior from Kaplan is, quite literally, the reason that I left lemmy.world.
Don't believe me? Here's the last message I sent Kaplan during the Jordan garbage.

Funny. Jordan requires a ton of deliberation, reasons in the TOS, and you're all 'working on it' but a single user says something you don't like so instant defederation?
Edit: Quick note but every other post on this community has been featured. This one isn't. So you're making an announcement but you're not really announcing it. Any response to this, Kaplan?
Edit 2: Kaplan is just blatantly lying. As demonstrated above, Kaplan has literally zero evidence of this claim other than things "feeling odd".

Edit 3: Serinus joined the thread 15 minutes ago and now a number of my comments are being removed for 'misinformation' despite the comment above proving them to be categorically true.

you unilaterally defederated from Anarchist.nexus days ago.
this bears repeating, this announcement comes days after, presumably when they realised that woops i guess we also have users that might care about this?
This is what a managerial outlook, "making tough decisions about the future of this project" looks like.
This is the best write-up about the drama that I've seen in this thread. Beautiful work as always Stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com
This is the worst Removed by mod that Iβve seen in this thread. Terrible work as always @Serinus@lemmy.world
Fair. Gumby is actually flexible on positions.
What's modlog say yours was removed for? Mine's 'personal attacks, useless drivel on an announcement thread.'
Kaplan seems super hurt to be called out for the bad faither he is.
He can't respond since same mod banned him.
Misinformation and drama
https://lemmy.world/modlog/5?page=1&actionType=All&modId=108149
Question: What alternatives do you recommend compared to Lemmy.world?
Oh there are a bunch of great ones if you wanna stay on Lemmy, and I do recommend staying on Lemmy at the moment. At least until a De-Rimu'd fork of Piefed is available. He's been having... a time lately and that time seems to involve a lot of misunderstandings at best or outright misinformation at worst. Combine that with weaponizing his platform... eh.
For Lemmy, Dbzer0 is a good one, as proven by the fact that they have handled this with more grace than anyone else at the LW team. Quok.ka (I'm probably fucking up where the period is or missing a letter) is also a solid one with great admins. Blahaj.zone has really protective admins if you're queer and tired of dealing with bigots. Those admins tend to be a wall that deals with a ton of shit and deserve all the praise for the crap they see to protect others from. I mean all admins do but them especially with the level of bigotry. Lemy.lol just had cm0002 take over so that'll be a good spot for memes, why I started posting there recently. Lemmy.ca seems to be pretty reasonable.
I do not personally recommend lemmy.ml but I don't condemn those who use it or the admins. Just personal differences which is how lemmy be. Startrek.website has actively abusive admins and wouldn't recommend there either. Hexbear is.... hexbear.
I'm sure there are others off hand but my brain is currently a soup
Fwiw, this current situation is not remotely comparable to the one with JordanLund.
For one thing, it was Luminous who preemptively banned Mr Kaplan, according to their very own words:
I banned MrKaplan preemptively from !anarchymemes@anarchist.nexus, as I do anyone who displays zionist tendencies. the ban reason was for βzionism, genocide apologiaβ.
and buried deep in a mod log (see picture shared by Rimu elsewhere in this thread), Luminous called MrKaplan a Zionist and genocide apologist, while simultaneously calling for the actual irl murder of all such people.

You admitted yourself that you don't have much knowledge about this new issue. So then why speak up about it, as if you had researched this new matter anywhere close to the degree that you had done the previous one? Your statement comes across as bad blood, allowing yourself to be biased due to past issues with the LW team. Which if that causes you to flee that instance and move to another one then so be it, but why muddy the waters here, at least prior to looking into the current issue so that you know what went on?
Luminous started this witch hunt. Luminous on AN called for the murder of people, even - according to other admins of AN:
Luminous had also posted the FHF icon with a swastika on top to YPTB
Luminous drew the ties between Mr. Kaplan, the FHF, Nazis (unless you will try to claim a more ancient origin usage for the swastika icon?), Zionism, genocide apologists, and the actual irl murder of everyone on the FHF team. Luminous is so much worse than 100 JordanLunds, who afaik may have been a PTB but did not call out for the real, actual, irl MURDER of the people that he disagreed with on the internet? And abusing their admin powers to, again in their very own words, preemptively ban others.
Mr Kaplan's response to this is not preemptive, it is instead... a "response" to the very clear opening volley of shots sent not merely to Mr. Kaplan but to e.g. the entire FHF team, and as your very own screenshot shows, not done in isolation but mentions being done with the support of several (albeit unnamed) others.
If after RESEARCHING this you feel that you want to make another post about the situation in YPTB, I will read it with great interest. But I think you will find that the situation is much less dramatic once you start reading through all the details, and you may even find yourself having to agree with the LW team on this one, or else make a much smaller fuss about a mere procedural point of the timeline here rather than the ultimate end result.
You actually got important details wrong here that no one has corrected you on and so you have continued spreading misinfo everywhere.
Luminous had also posted the FHF icon with a swastika on top to YPTB
Luminous drew the ties between Mr. Kaplan, the FHF, Nazis
This did not happen, that user was from a different instance seen here:

If you read the YPTB post, it mentioned 3 users. One user, luminous, was an AN admin, he banned Kaplan from an anarchy meme community (one he was a mod of, he was not banned from the entire AN instance as shown from Kaplan's modlog screenshot) for zionism and this was taken as a death threat for some reason because luminous had added the murder zionists to his nick. This alone caused the defederation from AN (again, this was the proof Kaplan showed for why he defederated). While Kaplan could have talked to literally anyone on the team, it was decided to defederate and others were encouraged to defederate over death threats from 'hostile admins'... that did not happen.
This drama was incredibly dumb, in that it could have been resolved with a chat, and the takeaway is not that anyone should agree with the LW team's actions (lmao even), but that you should try talking before pushing the button. Luminous stepped down as admin days ago btw but you are only being told now that there was even a defederation and updated with refederation shortly after.
I think you should probably refresh the page and look at my comment again because it's full of screenshots that are listing that, yes, I do know what I'm talking about and that what Kaplan did is indeed based off of a feeling. Including using a screenshot from Kaplan themselves.
Luminous did not start this witch hunt because Luminous acted as a moderator and not as an admin. Kaplan was the one who leapfrogged over speaking to any other admin and instantly went straight to defederation. Kaplan never told anyone else. Kaplan did not bring this up as problematic. Kaplan just instantly defederated. Something that, as this thread has been updated to show, they went ahead and undone because there was no justification for continue to defederate when the admin in question is gone.
The situation is, infact, more dramatic than I original made it out to be. I did plenty of research. You're just sitting on a very old comment because the whole thing about me "not knowing what was going on" was edited out fucking hours ago.
Luminous was an admin at the time. Then, Luminous stepped down from being an admin. Then, as you mentioned, LW re-federated AN once more.
If Luminous had merely been a mod, this could have been handled by blocking, but since they were an admin - at the time - it could only be handled by defederation.
I suppose you are calling MrKaplan a liar since your own screenshot mentions that it was discussed internally and not made solely by one person. It seems his word against yours, with no evidence currently presented either way.
Luminous was an admin at the time. Then, Luminous stepped down from being an admin. Then, as you mentioned, LW re-federated AN once more.
And is still considering defederating with it again as the post states. You do not get to claim full refederation as that is not the situation we are in. You are downplaying the situation.
If Luminous had merely been a mod, this could have been handled by blocking, but since they were an admin - at the time - it could only be handled by defederation.
No. It could have been handled by speaking with the admins of the other instance and saying "This is a problem." Speech is always an option, especially before taking a nuclear one.
I suppose you are calling MrKaplan a liar
Correct.
It seems his word against yours
No, I literally just presented it in the original comment.
With no evidence currently presented either way
I literally presented evidence in the original comment. A screenshot with a message from Mr. Kaplan stating that they had no evidence for what was going on, only an odd feeling. Here is the screenshot again with the relevant information highlighted.

What is your goal here on mispresenting reality so heavily?
Because apparently I can read what is happening out of your own screenshots, rather than read into them my preconceived biases?
Your very screenshot here begins with "at this point no decision is made on how we continue in terms of federation. this is not something i'm going to decide on my own without sufficient discussion in the team", and it then immediately in the next paragraph continues with "the original defederation happened..."
These words mean that the topic under discussion in that screenshot is NOT the original defederation, but rather whether AN (&dbzer0) should be re-federated, which ended up happening. So for one thing the context to the part highlighted refers to that newly current discussion, and for another it (i.e. the lack of proof) also refers to the sentence immediately prior to it, about the names targeting people rather than the ideology. In this new context those words take on entirely new meaning, but do not negate every single fact that came before - especially MrKaplan is unlikely to have forgotten the original reason for defederation.
You also shared this screenshot:

I don't want to edit your image so instead I'll type out rather than highlight the relevant part, since you don't want to read it all again:
MrKaplan: "in the end this is however not a decision i will be doing alone, nor was the defederation a decision that wasn't supported by others, despite their misrepresentation of this being me taking total power to fuck over others." (emphasis added)
However, I feel the goalposts keep shifting here, b/c to quote my own words:
I suppose you are calling MrKaplan a liar since your own screenshot mentions that it was discussed internally and not made solely by one person. It seems his word against yours, with no evidence currently presented either way.
(again, emphasis added here) To reiterate yet again, I was discussing whether the defederation had happened by MrKaplan entirely alone, vs. him consulting others, and I had indicated the word "evidence" meaning that the decision was made without consulting others. You responded with whether he had evidence to defederate the instance or not - but that is not the same topic.
Well, I suppose the topic can bring forth strong emotions. Though that is precisely what you are accusing MrKaplan of - acting on emotion rather than logic?
Anyway the communication of all of this by the LW team was definitely done exceedingly poorly - we can agree on that much, and the rest will have to wait until another day, as the decision to re-federate was already made. You've won: enjoy it:-D.
These words mean that the topic under discussion in that screenshot is NOT the original defederation, but rather whether AN (&dbzer0) should be re-federated, which ended up happening.
No, actually, it wasn't. The fact that you are trying to claim that you know the context of this conversation that you were not part of is staggering. You do not get to gaslight me, the person who was actually there, on what happened. Nor do you get to re-write the actuality of what occured. That is not what the discussion was actually referring to. It was, indeed, referring to what I originally claimed as I was the one who was there to see it.
βin the end this is however not a decision i will be doing alone, nor was the defederation a decision that wasnβt supported by others, despite their misrepresentation of this being me taking total power to fuck over others
My claim was that Kaplan did not talk to the admins of anarchist.nexus about this defederation and actually escalate this in an adult and mature way. That does nothing to claim otherwise. It was, indeed, a total power move to fuck over others. No one from any other instance was considered. No one was spoken to until after the defederation occured. How do I know? Because I was in the conversation.

I was discussing whether the defederation had happened by MrKaplan entirely alone, vs. him consulting others, and I had indicated the word βevidenceβ meaning that the decision was made without consulting others.
And you were the one who moved the goalpost there in the first place because my point was that anarchist.nexus was not considered all despite there being other admins on that instance. They were not talked to until after the defederation. See above for proof.
Though that is precisely what you are accusing MrKaplan of - acting on emotion rather than logic?
Correct.
we can agree on that much, and the rest will have to wait until another day, as the decision to re-federate was already made. Youβve won: enjoy it:-D.
I did not 'win'. No one 'won'. Kaplan did nothing. They backed down off of defederation temporarily but after they made a catastrophic error while still claiming that they are considering defederation.
Its kind of shocking to me that you start all of this off by saying I should do more research and then try to tell me what happened in my own conversations and not point out the fact that defederation is still on the table. I'm done having this conversation with you.
Fk yeah! Lemmy drama juice! Hasn't had any in like a day. Premium stuff.
We are still discussing this matter, but there is currently no point in keeping anarchist.nexus defederated while lemmy.dbzer0.com is federated
This honestly reads like a threat of escalation more than anything else
I mean...
My biggest problem with that is they should have done both from the start...
They're essentially one admin team, and between the two of them the closest thing to a popular community, is one where they talk shit about mods/admins from .world and harass the shit out of them.
There's very low amounts of users combined from both.
And I checked yours as an example, in two weeks all but two of your comments are on .world.
When admins allow their instance to a pitstop where users from anywhere can corridonate harraent and trolling....
What value comes from federating?
Look at this very thread, why would any .world admin want to deal with those admins?
Lemmy.world is very much like the dnc and dem leadership. Do multiple wildly unpopular things, have it blow up massively, then blame everyone else for it.
Look at this very thread, why would any .world admin want to deal with those admins?
Do you think the world admins are in the right here???
They just keep making threads on the only active community about getting banned/removed for the same shit which keeps pointing people here to rehash the same thing, over and over again...
You're active on that community, you've commented there.
And most likely after seeing one of the multiple posts there about this thread and all the trolls who have been banned for stirring drama, you came straight here and replied to a shit ton of people stirring drama...
Normal people don't want to interact with people who act like those instances encourage.
There's no solution except walling those instances off, and they'll just go after the next biggest instance dumb enough to federate with them.

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