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[–] 55 points 7 months ago (23 children)

"European sovereignty!!!" Hosts it on Github.

🤦

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  • [–] [S] 32 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    Perfection is the enemy of progress

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  • [–] 39 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    I would say that poor foundational choices are also the enemy of progress too.

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  • [–] 35 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Fortunately, migrating off Github to something like Codeberg is quite easy (or so I've heard).

    But I do wonder what it bodes for other choices they're making.

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  • [–] 24 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    From a source code perspective, moving is as easy as pushing it to another platform. Everything uses git under the hood.

    However, all the project mgmt stuff like issues and PRs and releases aren’t as easy

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Its not "easy" but its not that difficult either, I've overseen a migration from a gitea instance to github (coporate policy, not my choice) that had information that needed to be retained for regulatory purposes. it took a bit of work, but only a single engineer working on it on and off around other tasks for a few weeks including testing and dry runs.

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    It makes me feel like when people insist it would take an astronomical amount of effort to move their community off of discord.

    I know it will but you are worse than wasting your time putting that decision off because it will limit your community in ways you cannot even perceive yet.

    Stop wasting everyone's time, don't build houses on top of destabilized sinking mud and expect people to move in, and if they do now you have a MUCH bigger problem on your hands than the challenge of building a new building since you have to convince people the old building which looks fine is not safe.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    sovereignty != isolation

    Microsoft sucks, but what exactly is the threat you're trying to mitigate by not putting their Office suite on GH? Microsoft deciding to disappear it or take control of it one day? MS does a ton of business in Europe, so they have a lot more to risk than PR history for tools that the devs would all still have on their machines (and thus could migrate at any time to another code repo).

    There's not a readily-available European alternative to Github, and no, Codeberg is not one, because the value of GH is not just hosting code, it's being a well-known place to find code. If you want a "European alternative" to GH, you'd first need to create an internationally-famous, known-by-all-developers platform. But that's not "in scope" for their EU-Office tool.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    sovereignty != isolation
    Codeberg != isolation

    There’s not a readily-available European alternative to Github, and no, Codeberg is not one, because the value of GH is not just hosting code, it’s being a well-known place to find code.

    Codeberg is absolutely an alternative hosting place that is ready to go today. Medium and large players like Zig, Guix, Librewolf, Forgejo, and Comaps are on Codeberg. These aren't random people with projects that no one uses. These are large projects with lots of collaborators that ship software to lots of people. (Even Alpine Linux seems to be experimenting with Codeberg.)

    Codeberg has a similar UI/UX to GitHub. It's got CI too, either traditional CI with Woodpecker, or you can migrate your GitHub Actions to Forgejo Actions (which are similar).

    Codeberg is big and popular enough that it shows up in web search results, search for "zig source code" and you'll get a result for Codeberg. It's not like people only search for code in the GitHub search bar.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Codeberg != isolation

    I wasn't saying that codeberg was isolation, I'm saying that you don't have to extract yourself from all non-European tools and dependencies in order to maintain sovereignty.

    Codeberg is big and popular enough that it shows up in web search results

    Not from what I can see.

    search for “zig source code”

    Sure, if you search for something you are explicitly aware is on Codeberg, you'll find... links to Codeberg.

    But if you search for "source code repositories", "where to find open source software", "where to find source code for software", you get #1 Github, then Sourceforge, then other random ones like Google Code Repos.

    Even from the projects you listed, I've only heard of Forgejo (and that's only because I was explicitly searching for self-hosted code repo software), and Librewolf (Alpine is on their own Gitlab instance). Also, listing the software that the website itself is built on as evidence of big projects hosting there is a little obama-giving-himself-a-medal-meme-y.

    I'm not saying Codeberg is bad, or that people shouldn't use it, but it's not well-known and is not something to shame people for not using.

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  • [+] 8 points 7 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    I find code on codeberg all the time.

    You won't find codeberg unless you search for it or a repo that lives on it explicitly.

    Search in Google, DDG, Kagi, or whatever search engine you like for some generic variant of "where to find source code/ foss tools/ etc", and show me the combo that returns you Codeberg.

    Unlike Github, which is

    a well-known place to find code

    Codeberg is not, and most people have not heard of it, and won't find it organically.

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  • [+] 2 points 7 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    unless you search for it or a repo that lives on it explicitly

    Skill issue indeed. Reading comprehension, specifically.

    Let me spell it out:

    1. You won't find Codeberg in searches unless you know it exists already, or already know of a specific tool that is hosted there.
    2. Euro-Office creators probably want people to discover their tool as much as possible.
    3. Hosting the tool on a platform that doesn't come up in searches due to its relative obscurity is therefore a bad idea.
    4. Euro-Office creators chose not to do that.

    the vapid useless SEO-optimized articles that you find

    "This year will be the year of the Linux desktop Codeberg!"

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  • [+] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    foot... Searching for it

    euro office... searching for it

    Whether you like the SEO-driving search engine providers or not, they are still the way that most people find things on the internet, and they prioritize Github results. When you're not searching for "it", but just searching them by describing things like it, (of which there are many, mostly on Github), it serves your interest to 'O' for the 'SEs' by putting it somewhere that will get prioritized higher.

    If the goal is digital sovereignty for europe

    Sovereignty is exercised and evidenced by a state's ability to enforce the laws they have created. Microsoft operates within Europe. As long as Europe can enforce their laws upon Microsoft (as they can and do now), that relationship is still an exercise of European sovereignty.

    Back to my first comment in the thread, "sovereignty != isolation". Cutting yourself off from external groups does not make you "more sovereign" or something. If Europe cannot enforce their laws upon foreign business entities operating in their jurisdictions, and thus choose to prioritize Europe-headquartered businesses, that would be evidence of far weaker sovereign control of their jurisdiction.

    Now, if it's just a matter of prioritizing supporting European businesses, (call it, say, "Europe First", or maybe "Make Europe Gr..." oh wait) that's fine for them to do, and supporting any smaller business or organization over a large one is almost always preferable, but that isn't and shouldn't be about the perception of sovereignty or about nationalism, it should be about fighting back against corporate power by not rewarding these de facto monopolies and political meddlers and manipulators with your business.

    But once again, that's not within the scope (or ability) of a simple Office-alike application.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    On top: Codeberg is like sourceforge: Relativeky unknown.
    So some of the less technically inclined may know GitHub but would interpret Codeberg as a rip off unless IONOS literally links to it on their website (which they probably wont and instead just provide the download link or literally host the git infra on their own)

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    You're not showing that they were wrong. You're showing what they already said.

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  • [+] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Is the code mirrored on GitHub?
    If yes, you are right. It's a skill issue of web searching

    If no, you are wrong. It's sort of like searching for a reddit community for lemmy by searching "AskLemmy lemmy.world".
    (The goal is to highlight that AskReddit was essentially forked to AskLemmy and made it's own thing that is only on Lemmy)

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  • [+] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Yeah but what they said is meaningless. Searching for  source code is how you would search for tool’s source code. Not “where to find source code”

    I can't find any mention of that in this comment.
    And asking to read the whole wall of text in minute detail is bit much to ask...

    Anyway: I have said it that I agree on being mirrored. But hosting it only on Codeberg does take away a bit from being easy to discover.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago

    I had no idea there was so much drama behind MS Office alternatives. I moved to Libre some time ago and although it is often buggy and frustrating, I know it well enough to make it do the job. It's also had a ribbon UI for some time, so I'm not sure what the press release is talking about there.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    What's wrong with LibreOffice?

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Many complain about bad UX, if nextcloud is going through this amount of effort to make a fork, then those people have a point

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Just to clarify, NextCloud aren't forking LibreOffice, they're forking OnlyOffice. They're two very different projects (OnlyOffice is a web based office suite, whereas LibreOffice is primarily desktop based, although there is work on making a web version)

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  • 4 comments in c/technology@lemmy.zip view that post
    [–] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I dont understand why collabora and libreoffice don't work together. Why compete? And what is this onlyoffice fork? Why not work with libreoffice instead? There could be a massive effort going into libreoffice but somehow everybody's going their own way. It makes it so easy for Microslop

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago

    The one explanation I've heard is that the EU has fallen for the "if code is older than three months old and not in Rust it's dead" meme, something something about codebases presumably suffering from code rot.

    Do I believe it? Not a chance. EU legislators and stuff barely understand anything about code.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    OnlyOffice has so many missing features but it is the one that is closest to actual Microsoft office for me and my wife. Libre isn’t even close. If next cloud can fix all the missing features then they have my support.

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