Picture of Ubisoft, EA, Nintendo, Epic, Sony, and MS shooting themselves in the face while Valve looks perturbed. Soyjaks point at Valve yelling "MONOPOLY!"

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[–] 28 points 7 months ago (1 child)

While the actual monopolies actively making the world a significantly worse place keep getting away.

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  • [–] 127 points 7 months ago (12 children)

    I looked at the lawsuit details. Steam basically did what everyone else does. Apple, google, EA, everyone.

    They charge 30% of the sale. They require that the steam price be the same as an external price.

    It's the most nothing of nothings.

    To compare, what MS did when they got smacked with their monopoly lawsuit is bundle IE with the OS and they both made it hard to switch the default and they'd constantly try to switch you back to IE.

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  • [–] 92 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    *steam price the same as external price only if the external sale is for steam keys. And you have some time to offer an equivalent sale on steam.

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  • [–] 50 points 7 months ago* (6 children)

    This is the point everyone tends to gloss over, especially with the case brought against Valve from the Overgrowth dev where it's pretty relevant to their case. Glad to see someone has actually read the friggin' Steam TOS.

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  • [–] 17 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    The problem is that, allegedly, there are threatening emails from Valve to developers who tried to sell for lower prices on other platforms (NOT Steam keys). If this is true, then there is actual ammunition against Valve.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    I'll point out, when I went to sell my book on Apple Books, they had this in their TOS as well - I wasn't allowed to sell the same digital book for less somewhere else. It is not a new or unique agreement.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    The entirety of third party selling on Amazon is under this agreement. This is why i don’t think Steam will lose. Not because they shouldn’t, but because the money and power behind this are not valve at all.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Any of those places charging 30% on a product they're only publishing electronically is using walled gardens and monopolistic practices to do so.

    I'd rather they go after Steam last, but Steam belongs in that group with Apple, Google, and Microsoft. It's extraordinarily difficult to sell your PC game without Steam. A few large studios can do it, but not many others.

    Still notas egregious as Apple, and now Android with their restrictions on side loading.

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  • [–] 60 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    Even if Valve's offering sucked, I still have not seen anyone point out a business practice I would call anticompetitive. They are not buying up studios or publishers, or even paying for timed exclusivity. I have not seen any hint that they are colluding with competitors on prices or fees. I haven't seen then accused of stealing IP or poaching personnel. They readily welcome Microsoft and Sony to release games on Steam, and they have released their own games on consoles including the Switch. They let you install Windows or whatever else on the Deck, if you want to for some reason.

    Billionaires should not exist, and Gabe Newell is no exception. He should be taxed more. I don't love one company having so much control of this space. But I also don't want to have a dozen different crappy launchers from different companies to deal with. There are a lot of benefits to the user to having everything centralized in one place.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    How do we tax Gabe that much without necessarily watering down his share in the company and ensuring that outside investors enshittify it in the process?

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (5 children)
    1. Taxing those outside investors too
    2. Taxing Valve as a corporation more, making them less profitable and less attractive to said investors.
    3. I'm not even convinced this would be an issue at all really. Remember Valve is not publicly traded. I suspect Gabe would hold on to controlling ownership as long as it was profitable, and remember that taxes are usually on profits.
    4. Even if outside investors move in and enshittify, the moment they start doing anticompetitive you hit them with antitrust suits. Not to mention the industry can also be regulated even before all this: a lot of governments are cracking down on lootboxes already.
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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (3 children)
    1. I don't think this would solve the problem. Even if all of the outside investors are restricted to less than $1 billion in capital each, pooling their funds would easily be able to outweigh Gabe if he's subject to the same restriction.

    2. If we increase taxes on all companies across the board, the overall appeal of each individual corporation would likely stay about the same. In fact, since Steam is so profitable that might make them more appealing as an investment in a world where corporate taxes are much higher.

    3. Corporate taxes are usually on profits, but in order to tax Gabe enough for him to no longer be a billionaire the vast majority of those taxes would have to come out of Gabe's ownership in Valve. I'm not sure why you don't think this would be an issue.

    4. This seems pretty unrealistic/idealistic. I guess we are already positing an unrealistic world where billionaries are taxed out of existence, so imagining functioning regulation and antitrust suits isn't that much more of a stretch. Still, that does seem to support my point that without significant other societal change taxing Gabe so much that he's no longer a billionaire would likely significantly worsen Valve as a company.

    I'm certainly not against taxing billionaires out of existence, but I still think that the question of what that would mean for corporate ownership is a difficult/complex one, and I don't think your answers here really take that complexity into account.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Taxing billionaires is not some new and untested concept. In the US throughout the 1900's the highest income tax brackets were often in the 70%'s, reaching into the 90%'s at times, and we did not see what you are suggesting.

    Increasing the taxes on Gabe Newell's profits from owning Valve would not suddenly cause him to lose money, just to gain less money. If corporate taxes and income taxes were increased across the board, then it is not as if he would benefit from selling Valve stock to invest elsewhere, and Valve would not be a more or less attractive place to invest relative to other options either. I am not sure why you think this would cause Gabe Newell to back out or investors to jump in. Heck, these rates have all changed pretty frequently within Valve's existence and have not had a significant impact.

    Also just to say, there is also the matter of jurisdiction as he lives in New Zealand while Valve is a US based company.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    In the US throughout the 1900's the highest income tax brackets were often in the 70%'s, reaching into the 90%'s at times, and we did not see what you are suggesting.

    We did not see what I'm suggesting because that's an income tax, and in order to abolish billionaires we'd need a wealth tax.

    Increasing the taxes on Gabe Newell's profits from owning Valve would not suddenly cause him to lose money, just to gain less money.

    Yes, but if you slow the income of a person who is already a billionaire, you get a billionaire who is still getting richer, only more slowly. This does not get rid of billionaires, and everything I've been saying was based on your initial comment that Gabe is a billionaire, and billionaires should not exist.

    In order to take someone who is already a multibillionaire and make them not a billionaire, you have to take away property that they already own until their net worth falls below a billion dollars. In the case of Gabe, since most of his wealth is tied up in Valve stock, in order to make him not a billionaire you'd need to make him sell some of his stock in Valve, which would dilute his ownership and control over the company.

    Do you understand the problem now?

    Again, I want to find a sensible way to eliminate billionaires - I'm just not sure how to do so without throwing corporate ownership into chaos. I'd love to hear other recommendations if anyone has any.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    You're just proposing a much more drastic and rapid change than I am. I agree that a wealth tax would be a more immediate effect. It is also much more drsstixnand far less tested. The idea is interesting and I am neither opposed to it nor calling for it. I do not think it it necessary.

    Increasing income tax rates and corporate tax rates would be a much slower approach. I didn't mention them, but I would also add in property tax rates and capital gains. Luxury sales taxes, inheritancd taxes. In the US, make OASDI a progressive instead of regressive tax.

    For existing billionaires, there are plenty of laws they've already broken to get where they are that just need to be enforced. Wage theft, antitrust, union busting, fraud. The SEC should have buried Musk in a dungeon years ago. So I see the answer to eliminating existing wealth being fines rather than taxes.

    Of course, there is also room to increase the minimum wage and minimum benefits. That would hell redistribute wealth too.

    I don't know Gabe Newell, or even anyone who works at Valve personally, but every account I have ever read about Valve is that they usually treated and paid their employees well. Investigate all of these megacorps and prosecute appropriately.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago

    I don’t want to fucking tax them! Fuck that! Do you see who runs this government?!?! Fuck that shit!

    Redistribute that fucking wealth right back to us immediately! Don’t let those greedy government pigs take it! I’d rather valve have it!

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    I also don’t want to have a dozen different crappy launchers from different companies to deal with. There are a lot of benefits to the user to having everything centralized in one place.

    I wonder if there's a future where every game marketplace uses open standards/APIs that 3rd-party launchers (like Heroic) can consume for downloading games, checking DRM status, tracking achievements, friends, and so on. DRM is probably the hardest part of that, though maybe there could be closed-source blobs downloadable to enable a store's DRM. It's obviously not in the interest of companies solely focused on profit and dark patterns, but I wonder if Steam would ever consider using its weight to do it anyway.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago

    Being anticompetitive is far from the only way a company can be shitty.

    Steam had to be sued by the Australian government into following the law regarding refunds for faulty products.

    They have always been at the forefront of shitty gambling mechanics in video games, with their random loot boxes and tradeable skins.

    And until recently, the hyper-consumerist FOKO-inducing structure of Steam sales was pretty awful.

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  • [–] 52 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    What maintains Steam’s dominant market position is user lock in, not any policy they enforce or any monopoly laws they violate. The only thing that would break user lock in would be allowing migration of licenses for games between platforms, and making friend/multiplayer/mod-management systems interoperable across platforms.

    Valve has made no effort to implement these kinds of systems. BUT NETHER HAS ANYONE ELSE. (Well except gog and DRM free games, but that’s only part of the issue.)

    The fact that one privately owned company has such huge control of the industry is a huge risk, undeniably. But breaking up valve wouldn’t solve the problem, it would just let someone else take their place.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    I do buy games off other platforms and import them into Steam all the time.

    I'll admit a 30% fee is egregious these days though, extortionate. I think it should be capped at 10%, then a further smaller cap planned every decade as technology improves.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    When you “add a game” to the steam library, you’re just creating a link to another file on your system, not really shifting the management of it over to steam (so no updates or the like), and if you logged in on another machine you wouldn’t be able to download the game through steam.

    more importantly you can’t take a steam game and move over your license to use it, or ability to install/update it to some other platform. If you decided you never wanted to use steam again, that you liked some other platform better, you would still have to use steam to access any games you purchased there.

    Edit: just an after thought to clarify my thinking on this. You payed to accesses that code. That series of instructions to be run on your computer. Everyone who worked to make it has been payed. If they don’t have money to keep maintaining it, they should stop doing that, or ask for further money to keep doing so. But if you want to just run the code you paid for already, it is absurd that someone restrict in what way you run a series of commands on your computer. It is indefensible, and corrosive to society.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    monopoly laws they violate

    A monopoly is holding a large marketshare. It is a label determined by courts. That the marketshare is from consumers picking the product is irrelevant to being declared a monopoly.

    In the late 90's Windows was the overwhelming market leader for OS's because the alternatives weren't good. Linux didn't have good consumer focused distros and was therefore used on servers. MacOS at the time was still cooperatively multitasked like Windows 1.0 from almost 20 years earlier. So Microsoft was declared a monopoly and had restrictions placed on what it could do despite all other competitors already doing what Microsoft did (like including a web browser). That's why years later Apple was able to make Safari the ONLY web browser (all "alternatives" were just reskins of Safari) whereas Microsoft was forced to include support so that you could switch the default web browser.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Microsoft was not declared a monopolist because of their dominant market position in operating system space.

    They were declared a monopolist because they used that market position to actively disincentive the use of competitor’s browsers, beyond “just including a browser”, but actively doing things to make other browsers difficult to download and use on their operating system.

    Apple is not declared a monopolist because they do not own and control chrome, the really dominant market player derived from WebKit, and apple are not using some dominant market position to enforce that.

    If you see things differently and think the same logic as these cases could be applied to steam, go ahead and contact epic’s legal department.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    but actively doing things to make other browsers difficult to download and use on their operating system.

    That is absolutely not true. I was President of a mid sized ISP at the time. We shipped both IE and Netscape on CD for consumers to pick which they wanted to install.

    The bundling was a problem because of their already pre existing dominant market position.

    Apple is not declared a monopolist because they do not own and control chrome

    Microsoft did not own and control Netscape's rendering engine which was the really dominant market player. Apple uses their market position to make Safari the majority web browser in the US. (phones outnumber home pc's and Apple has over 50% marketshare.)

    go ahead and contact epic’s legal department.

    I don't give a fuck about Epic. Steam is Walmart and Epic is Kmart.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    This kind of lock in is even less relevant now with cross platform play and similar options becoming a common game feature. Take a game I play, Dead by Daylight; people can add friends on PlayStation and Xbox through BHVR (the dev) ID. It takes some work on the developer’s part, but they can provide their own tools to break that Steam lock-in.

    So let’s say some public corporate emergency prompts a Valve exodus (eg, Gabe eats babies) - people would need to buy new copies of their most played games, but in many cases their account progress is on a movable ID, so it wouldn’t even be a huge blocker.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago*

    Buying a new copy of every games I play regularly (say 2-10 hours every 6 months) would be nearly a months rent for me.

    Even if you only have like 2 games your play regularly, you shouldn’t have to pay for them again. You already payed for them.

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  • [–] 18 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    Other companies keep suing Steam because they (the other companies not steam) are run incompetent fools. Overpaid executives with no clue or desire to learn anything about their target audience keep telling them that screwing your customers and employees is good actually. When they see a company that doesn't is able to effortlessly outmatch them they can't stand it.

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