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[–] 46 points 7 months ago (6 children)

I have a friend that’s really taken to ChatGPT to the point where “the AI named itself so I call it by that name”. Our friend group has tried to discourage her from relying on it so much but I think that’s just caused her to hide it.

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  • [–] -4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

    I certainly enjoy talking to LLMs about work for example, asking things like "was my boss an arse to say x, y, z" as the LLM always seems to be on my side... Now it could be my boss is an arse, or it could be the LLM sucking up to me. Either way, because of the many examples I've read online, I take it with a pinch of salt.

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago

    It's definitely sucking up to you. It's programmed to confirm what you say, because that means you keep using it.

    Consider how you phrase your questions. Try framing a scenario from the position of your boss, or ask "why was my boss right to say x, y, z", and it'll still agree with you despite the opposite position.

    If you're just shooting the shit, consider doing it with a human being. Preferably in person, but there are plenty of random online chat groups too

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    I use LLMs for work (low priority stuff to save time on search or things that I know I will be validate later in the process) and I can't stand the writing style and the constant attempts to bring in adjacent unrelated topics (I've been able to tone down the cute language and bombastic delivery style in Gemini's configuration).

    It's like Excel trying to chat with me when I am working with a pivot table or transforming data in PowerQuery.

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  • [–] 225 points 7 months ago (50 children)

    Huge Study

    *Looks inside

    this latest study examined the chat logs of 19 real users of chatbots — primarily OpenAI’s ChatGPT — who reported experiencing psychological harm as a result of their chatbot use.

    Pretty small sample size despite being a large dataset that they pulled from, its still the dataset of just 19 people.

    AI sucks in a lot of ways sure, but this feels like fud.

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  • [–] 60 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    The hugeness is probably

    391, 562 messages across 4,761 different conversations

    That's a lot of messages

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  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    If that's only 19 users, that's around 250 conversations per user 🤔

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    ...and about 82 messages per conversation. Also, at least half of all the messages are from the user to the AI, and the other half are from the AI to the user, meaning around 41 messages from the user per conversation.

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  • [–] 25 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    I remember reading my old states book that said a minimum of 30 points needed for normal distribution. Also typically these small sets about proof of concept, so yeah you still got a point.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    It's about 300 samples for an estimate of the distribution with a 95% confidence iirc. That's assuming the samples are representative (unbiased) and 95% confidence doesn't mean it's within 95% of reality, but that 5% of tests run in such a way would be expected to be inaccurate (and there's no way of knowing for sure which one this particular sample is because even a meta study will have such an error rate, though you can increase the confidence with more samples or studies, just never to 100% unless you study every possible sample, including future ones).

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    That doesn't make sense. What if your population is only 100?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Then any statistics you measure on that population might be fully accurate for those 100 but might be less able to predict what the next 100 will look like.

    You can still measure stats with smaller groups, it just means the confidence interval is smaller. With 300, there's a 95% chance your test results are close to reality. With 100 it might be more like 66%.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Population is a statistical term which means "everything". There is no "next 100".

    The 300 number is specifically about very big populations where you're trying to measure something like an average of an unknown variable. It doesn't apply to just anything statistics.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    I meant like births, as in even if you can enumerate every single individual, statistics can apply to future members that don't yet exist.

    And yeah, it's been a while and I remembered that the proof didn't depend on the population size but forgot that it assumed a large population size in the first place. I was wrong.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (21 children)
  • [–] 35 points 7 months ago

    fud: Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. A tactic for denigrating a thing, usually by implication of hypothetical or exaggerated harms, often in vague language that is either tautological or not falsifiable.

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  • [+] -28 points 7 months ago (18 children)
  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (15 children)
  • [–] -3 points 7 months ago (14 children)

    and yet it doesn't stop being their jargon

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    They also use the words "the," "at," "is," and "it," but that doesn't make it their jargon.

    We really need to stop condemning entire words just because some people we don't like used them...

    I can't tell you how many times I've been accused of using a "dogwhistle" because I used a totally innocuous word in accordance with its literal meaning without having any idea that it's apparently been co-opted by some group of hate-filled extremists because I don't follow those groups and I don't know their lingo...

    Like, soon we won't have any words left that we're still allowed to use. Language is already getting dumbed down, and I'm tired of walking on eggshells lest I say a word that could potentially be misinterpreted in light of a vague association to a different term that has a double-entendre that some niche circles use in some reprehensible way in their ostensibly secret code, or that I didn't know was a euphemism...

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (10 children)

    it's not exclusively their jargon, but it is their jargon.

    it's jargon, not common parlance.

    you're having an argument with me about something other people have said to you. please don't put words in my mouth.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago* (9 children)

    I'm not arguing with you, at what point did I claim you said anything that I disagree with?

    I was just using your comment as a springboard.

    Maybe I should have replied to fartmaster instead, but done is done...

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (8 children)

    sorry, maybe i'm reading tone into your italics that isn't there. tone over text is hard and i don't sleep a lot.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    It's understandable. I was frustrated, and the italics were meant to express my frustration. I just didn't intend for it to feel directed at you... my bad...

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (6 children)

    hey no worries. i've been getting a lot of frustration directed at me. maybe that's why i misinterpreted it.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you probably don't deserve it. I've seen your other comments and you seem conscientious, relatable, and like you're doing the best you can just like the rest of us...

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    oh i'm not talking about here, just talking about life

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    Life is... brutal...

    It doesn't have to be. We humans are capable of being civilized, we've done it before. For a while I thought world peace was within our reach, at least in my lifetime, but now I'm not so sure...

    Even on the smaller scale, people don't have to be so cruel to each other. It's a choice. A deeply-ingrained, generational pattern, maybe, but a choice to wake up each day and continue living in that inertia.

    Of course, it takes more than an individual to break that tide. It's a collective choice. But collective choices are just the sum of all the individual choices that reach critical mass...

    I'm just absently philosophizing... don't mean to blow smoke up your ass...

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    don’t mean to blow smoke up your ass…

    Oh they tried that it doesn't make the hole work any better

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    It's not really ethical to just yoink people's chats and study them

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago

    "We received chat logs directly from people who self-identified as having some psychological harm related to chatbot usage (e.g. they felt deluded) via an IRB-approved Qualtrics survey "

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    How big do you think the population of people with AI delusion is? Why can't 19 be a representative sample? Why is that not enough to make statements like "after the user expresses romantic interest in the chatbot, the chatbot is 7.4x more likely to express romantic interest in the next three messages, and 3.9x more likely to claim or imply sentience in the next three messages." when all 19 users expressed romantic interest?

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  • [+] -19 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    Are you unironically saying “fud”

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago* (9 children)

    Where are you hearing it so much? (And ideally can you describe it in a little more detail than saying it's crypto bros again?)

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (8 children)

    Crypto bros are infamous for describing any criticism as FUD, no matter the criticism. It's like a verbal tic. Here are some examples from the past couple days on the premiere Bitcoin social network:

    When all this FUD ends and Bitcoin goes 🚀

    Quantum FUD is at ATH

    FUD Busters [NFT]

    Flokicoin is built to last... Don't follow the FUD.

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  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    The term FUD has been around longer & broader than that. But thanks for the explanation.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (5 children)

    I have no argument there, the phrase was definitely not created by them, it's just been beaten to death by them.

    They've also overused a bunch of ancient and unfunny memes well past their expiration dates, and universally adopted a collection of depressingly dull and incorrect slogans. "FUD" is just the one that has interesting meaning outside their sad sphere.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Expecting someone who doesn't follow cryptobro spaces to associate the term FUD with cryptobros and therefore stop using it is... kinda ignorant.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with you, and hopefully my posts don't come across like that's what I believe. If anything, I'd prefer all phrases to be taken back from them.

    I'm just trying to describe the other half of where different people see the word, and why they might come to different, incomplete conclusions.

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  • While I am aware that it's a common crypto shill term, I think by this point crypto has fallen out of the mainstream, so their usage of terms doesn't really matter.

    And as others have pointed out, the term FUD has been used at least since the birth of WWW/modern internet.

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  • [–] 43 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    As the researchers wrote in a summary of their findings, the “most common sycophantic code” they identified was the propensity for chatbots to rephrase and extrapolate “something the user said to validate and affirm them, while telling them they are unique and that their thoughts or actions have grand implications.”

    There's a certain irony in all the alright techbros really just wanting to be told they were "stunning and brave" this whole time.

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  • [–] -3 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Are the users in this study techbros?

    Besides, tech bros didn't program this in, this is just an LLM getting stuck in the data patterns stolen from toxic self-help literature.

    For decades there has been a large self-help subculture who consume massive amounts of vacuous positive affirmation produced by humans. Now those vacuous affirmations are copied by the text copying machine with the same result and it's treated as shocking.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Besides, tech bros didn't program this in, this is just an LLM getting stuck in the data patterns stolen from toxic self-help literature.

    That's not necessarily true. The AI's output is obviously shaped by the training data, but much of it is also shaped by the prompt (and I don't just mean your prompt as a user).

    When you interact with (for example) ChatGPT, your prompt gets merged into a much larger meta-prompt that you don't get to see. This meta-prompt includes things like what tone the AI should use, how the AI should identify itself, how the AI should steer the conversation, what topics the AI should avoid, etc. All of that is under the control of the people designing these systems, and it's trivially easy for them to adjust the way the AI behaves in order to, for example, maximize your engagement as a user.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    this is just an LLM getting stuck in the data patterns stolen from toxic self-help literature.

    Honestly, I've found that discussing that sort of thing with ChatGPT often ends up challenging all the self-help grout I've ingested via cultural osmosis throughout the years.

    It's easier to make connections when you're approaching issues in a Descartes "dump out all the apples" approach with a tool that literally doesn't have embedded social contracts in itself.

    Ironically, I've found at times that a real therapist can be much more of an echo chamber when they're just regurgitating that same CBT toxic positivity swill that both of you have been drinking lol

    Maybe it's because it's less of an authority, so you can debate more and it leads to more well-rounded conclusions in the end, but I've been unearthing bits and pieces of maladaptive behaviors and thought patterns I never even realized I had, much less ever scratched the surface of in proper therapy. Made me kinda angry to realize at first lol, it felt like all that time and money only for bandaid solutions. But I try to reason that was likely a good foundation to have first (even if CBT just wound up making everything worse later on in life and I essentially had to work backwards to stop classifying certain emotions as wrong or problematic things which required "healthy" coping mechanisms to correct).

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    An LLM contains multitudes. It's nice you can get it to a space where you benefit from it for now - its inevitable enshittification is still in the "attract users by being useful and cheap" phase - but that doesn't contradict it being dangerous for those who don't know how to handle it whose input activates the section of its weights that imitates cults, catfishers, scammers.

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (6 children)

    Anthropic has some similar findings, and they propose an architectural change (activation capping) that apparently helps keep the Assistant character away from dark traits (sometimes). But it hasn't been implemented in any models, I assume because of the cost of scaling it up.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago* (5 children)

    When you talk to a large language model, you can think of yourself as talking to a character

    But who exactly is this Assistant? Perhaps surprisingly, even those of us shaping it don't fully know

    Fuck me that's some terrifying anthropomorphising for a stochastic parrot

    The study could also be summarised as "we trained our LLMs on biased data, then honed them to be useful, then chose some human qualities to map models to, and would you believe they align along a spectrum being useful assistants!?". They built the thing to be that way then are shocked? Who reads this and is impressed besides the people that want another exponential growth investment?

    To be fair, I'm only about 1/3rd of the way through and struggling to continue reading it so I haven't got to the interesting research but the intro is, I think, terrible

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    stochastic parrot

    A phrase that throws more heat than light.

    What they are predicting is not the next word they are predicting the next idea

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago*

    How it functionally works, its the next word / token / chunk a lot more than its an "idea". An idea is even rough to define

    The other relatively accurate analogy is a probabilistic database

    Neither work if you've fallen into anthropomorphising, but they're relatively accurate to architecture and testing for people that aren't too computer literate, far more than the anthropomorphising alternatives at least

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    This explains a lot, honestly.

    Everyone keeps telling me how "addictive" and "convincing" and "personal feeling" ChatGPT is.

    Meanwhile, I'm over here like

    "Can you stop saying skrrrt after every sentence while I'm trying to research a serious topic, it's annoying"

    "Understood, skrrrt 💥🌴🚗💨"

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