Installing solar panels on your home or business is common in many European countries. But they really come into their own during energy crises.

“If you’ve got a solar roof on your home and you’ve got a battery then, depending on how much energy you can generate, you are substantially insulated from importing electricity,” explains Matthew Clayton, CEO of UK-based Thrive Renewables.

Dynamic tariffs are becoming more common in Europe. This is where the price of electricity varies throughout the day and night, with costs going up during peak periods, like dinner time, when households are using more.

This means that if you store up solar power during daylight hours, when the sun is at its strongest, then you can use that energy, rather than drawing it from the electricity grid, during the most expensive periods. “Your relationship with the grid is totally changed,” says Clayton.

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[–] 10 points 7 months ago (4 children)

Grid going down?

I think the last time I experienced that was 15 years ago. Even then it was only for a couple of hours.

Like it's such a non event as to not even bother trying to fix it.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    It happened in Spain last year and it lasted for a day more or less. You never know.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    At what point is a 1 in X event need to be likely to occur for it to be worth spending thousands on, if not 10,000's?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    If you're framing it as "...worth spending..." then you can do the sums, if you like.

    e.g. if you have a 1 in 1000 event that is 24h without electricity (once every 2 or 3 years?) You'd normally spend 30 a day on electricity, plus a cost for the convenience of not having it happen, lifetime of what 10-20 years, so multiply that up.

    And if you can quantify the other benefits (using the variable daily rates, etc) then you get a better estimate.

    So your thought is valid (in a quantitative / utilitarian kinda way), but not new. It looks to me like we are at or approaching the point where for people who put high value on convenience, it is worth it. For those who don't, it isn't.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I have literally never even heard of my grid going down for 24hrs and I'm not talking constraint to my lifetime. To think it happens every 2 years is outstanding.

    You also do not get any additional benefits. The cost is being able to run off grid doesn't get to any additional benefits like being sell back to the grid. Obviously you need to pay for batteries and stuff beforehand and the logical reason for buying batteries stands. But to upgrade your system to an event that has literally never happened before seems silly.

    Spain just royally fucked up on a grid level and not something that is likely to occur again. They need to spend more on their grid which they are.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago (18 children)

    The disadvantage is that you still lose power when the grid goes down, even if you have storage. Unless you run parallel circuits, and your system is island/black start capable.

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  • [–] 24 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not sure how that is a disadvantage compared to being on the power grid? If you are on the power grid, and the grid goes down, you also don't have power.

    What is this a disadvantage compared to?

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    My point is that with this basic setup (I run 2 kWp) is that you still lose power when the grid goes down, so your relationship to the grid is not totally changed. The only thing you notice are smaller power bills.

    The disadvantage is compared to a insular/black start capable setup which is more expensive/complicated (and needs a licensed electrician to be legal) but lets you run on battery when the grid goes down.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    It is valid that a grid failure proof system is a bigger change to relationship with the grid.

    But as someone with a 10x cost difference between on-peak and off-peak pricing, stored power certainly changes how I interact with the grid. My time of use use, and therefore my family's own habits, are drastically changed. Not doing laundry 16h00-21h00 with a toddler was a rough go. So yes, my relationship with the grid has totally changed; in ways more than jsut my bill.

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  • [–] 21 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

    Colleagues, users of Lemmy, please do not downvote this poster. Most solar power installations in use today are grid-following, so it's correct to point out: if the grid drops, most solar inverters stop. Your average Huawei is not capable of operating in island mode. It needs a reference frequency to follow.

    On most days, this is not a problem. The operator of the electrical grid will do everything to keep it up.

    However, it's a real risk if your electrical grid should get bombed, or pelted with ice rain.

    Myself I have a different kind of a solar power system, and it's not commonplace. It's easy and doable, there is plenty of instruction available, but it's less profitable.

    panels -> DC -> charging controllers -> DC -> interrupter -> battery bank -> balancers and fuses -> still DC --> local consumers, among them an inverter --> finally some AC --> possibly the grid

    To get a safe system, ask a specialist or learn about balancers, interrupters and fuses. Everything is DIY-able with a willingness to learn. Avoid dangerously high voltage if you aren't certified to work with electrical power.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Do you have any directions where to go for this, traveler?

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    It depends on the country one lives in, because to connect equipment to the grid, it has to be certified in that country.

    As a good starting point, I would recommend to look at inverters sold as "hybrid inverters", especially if the manufacturer advertises "off-grid" capability with automatic switch-over.

    Here is one, from the manufacturer whose devices (older versions, no longer manufactured) I use. There are many others. If the user's manual explains the process of automatic switch-over to off-grid (island) mode, then the inverter will provide autonomous power in case of grid collapse.

    https://maximumsolar.online/product/hybridv2-6048/

    ...and here is another one, from a different company. Anything that becomes autonomous upon loss of grid freqency (disconnects from the grid and leaves only sensors to read its status) and then gracefully handles the return of grid frequency (does not connect before synchronization has been achieved).

    https://www.qoltec.com/product/qoltec-hybrid-solar-inverter-off-grid-24kw-80a-mppt-sinus

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago

    Thanks! I'm in SW desert USA, on a large piece of land so I was thinking of just putting on the a scaffold structure on the ground instead of on the roof. In the past looked at the ability to put panels over my small garden to act as a shade, but I think the structure needed to hold them would be prohibitively expensive.

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Its pretty common to have a ups built in to switch to batteries. Can't export power but still lights on

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    Yeah, you can run a few systems on a circuit that way, but most of the ups-like storage inverters are not integrated into your solar PV system, so don't try to minimize feed-in into the grid and maximize locally generated power consumption.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Solar makes it much less likely for the grid to crash anyway. ESPECIALLY closer to the source (avoids transmission loss and transformer strain)

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    Renewable power generation is not dispatchable, so large fraction of it in generation make grid stabilization interventions more frequent.

    Unless your country has a sane generation strategy you should plan for more rather than less power outage events in future. Fortunately commercial home solutions for that exist and are getting cheaper.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    For the plug in panels would it be possible to swap the plug into a battery that isn’t connected to the grid during an emergency? Or is the “plug in” bit more complicated than I’m imagining?

    Around me (unrelated to war) they’re offering rebates for home batteries and generators to keep some basics up during an outage.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    It's possible, but needs to be engineered for safety, and that design/testing/certification will increase the cost and complexity.

    You can have solar panels and a battery totally off grid, where the big battery just acts as a generator, with its own inverter creating AC power for anything you plug in. That's really simple and cheap, but isn't safe for connecting to and powering a grid-connected house circuit. So anything you want to power with one of these systems needs to be plugged into outlets that only get their power from these batteries.

    You can add a grid-following inverter that safely matches the grid frequency AC, so that you can use the solar power you collect in your own normal home circuit, to power your own household appliances. But the simplest design here is a grid following inverter that doesn't work when the grid isn't connected. It can only add to something that already exists and can't do things on its own.

    If you want to do both, where it can work without grid power and it follows the grid when the grid power is on, you'll have to design a system that can switch between the two modes without delivering power where it's not expected or generating power that conflicts with the grid's AC waveform. Making it automated, like an UPS system, is even more complicated.

    It's not impossible, or even that difficult, it just does add complexity and the engineering tradeoff is always the question of "what problem does this solve, and is solving that problem important enough to devote these resources to it?" For anyone on a reliable electric grid where power outages are rare, the answer is usually no.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    The grid-tied inverters need to have a grid voltage and frequency to be in a certain defined range orelse they switch off (this behaviour can be changed via firmware for some inverters). In theory you could use a pure sinus UPS for that, but in practice it is not designed to receive power on the outlet side and will overload/burn out.

    There are specific battery/diesel backed solar grid-tied inverter solutions which can smoothly separate and reconnect from the grid during outages while providing power to the consumers. These are far more expensive than simple grid-tied solar inverters.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Some, perhaps most, balcony solar use a powerstation as a buffer to the wall outlet. While whole house sharing may get turned off in outage, you can still move the power to where its needed

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    Yes, you can use that as an emergency solution, if you have a battery-buffered solar system with an UPS functionality. Most existing balcony solar systems don't have that.

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  • 10 comments in c/buyeuropean@feddit.uk view that post
    [–] 7 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    Who sells good parts for this? Looking at a lot of batteries and it's like £1 of energy storage for £3k. Would need to fully charge and discharge it well over 3000 times to pay for its self and that doesn't count the solar panels either.

    I have heard of people talk of much shorter payback periods so I assume better must exist and I am just looking at the wrong things? Or go for a smaller battery and just make use of the solar power during the day and the battery only holds a fairly small capacity but balances loads a bit.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    You're forgetting that those batteries are super useful in case of power outages and to time your energy release to the grid when it's most valuable for you. It's also beneficial to switch to an electric plan that has on/off peak rates, so you can charge the battery during off peak, and utilise it during peak periods. kWh pricing can be as much as 2-3x difference (depending on how you look at it, e.g. Octopus offers 0.11ppkWh off-peak and 0.35ppkWh peak rates, but they have a solar package too that offers optimised export rates).

    I'd also say, go for a smaller, modular battery, and upgrade bit by bit as you need, that way the investment returns are visible sooner.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    You're forgetting that those batteries are super useful in case of power outages

    1. The last power outage I had was over 10 years ago.
    2. Batteries only work in that case if the inverter isn't "grid-following". Most inverters are, and so when the grid goes down, so do your batteries.
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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago
    1. Lucky you. Does nothing to prevent an accident tomorrow down the road, where a worker may cut the mains cable by accident, which will take a few days to restore.

    2. hybrid inverters and transfer switches (even automatic ones) do exist...

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    I know about off peak rates but that makes it even longer to pay for its self as you are only saving some of the energy cost rather than all of it. Does eliminate solar panel needs but still looking at a decade or more and panels are comparably cheap.

    Power cuts are so rare here that it might be dead before the next powercut, and never had one last for more than minutes.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    No no no, you got me wrong.

    You're saving a lot more because:

    • you redirect your "whenever" power usage (car charging, other high power use like dishwasher, washing machine, dryer, etc.) to that period, thus reducing your expenses, while allowing the battery to still charge (solar generates power at night too, unless it's pitch black, albeit considerably less than you would during the day)
    • during the peak time, you use the battery and solar and supply the system back, essentially bringing your peak usage expense to near 0.

    At the end of the day you're balancing out your incoming and outgoing power - and with the battery you can be even completely grid-free (albeit still connected as a backup), if needed.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    I don't really have many of those whenever power usages though. I don't need to charge a car, don't have a dishwasher, washing machine runs on low heat so doesn't really use that much power. My heating/hot water is done by a heat pump which would require a house battery as I can't just plug it into something myself.

    Pretty sure a lot of my usage is from long continuous things. I could plug my home office into a portable (or barely portable with the size of some of them) battery and charge that with some solar panels in the garden. Use some extension leads to connect up at least the bedroom and living room too. The problem is that I haven't found a cost effective way to do so even though I otherwise want to.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    If this is as you say, your power needs are minimal so your battery needs are too and your complaint is a bit odd. You're making it sound like your overnight needs are basically lights and then you could almost get by with the minor batteries I had in my van (that were excessive). I suspect you're not being clear with your situation

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    There are different setups I have thought of and tbh mostly looked at battery only. So 4kWh = £1 normally or £0.20 off peak then you are saving £0.80/day.

    But yeah, solar you can also use power while the sun is shining and the batteries are 100%. Mostly looked at stuff like jackery, anker solix, ecoflow. Can you have them plugged into the mains but they will only use the mains when the battery is empty rather than using the mains to charge the battery? Then the battery doesn't have to be as large to still benefit from it and it can balance it out a bit through the day.

    Downside is that the benefits of it might be harder to calculate.

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