Leftists: "you have 2 years to generate a candidate that doesnt support genocide" DNC: "So you are just gonna let Trump win? "

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[–] 47 points 8 months ago (7 children)

And the dnc trash is also pushing moderates.

We don't want fucking moderates! We don't want more status quo losers afraid to rock the boat and gasp actually improve the citizens' lives.

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    moderate = centrist = corporate slave

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    It's not even centrist. Democrats are center-right and Republicans are far-right, so the "centrists" in the US are three-quarters right.

    The Overton window in the US has shifted significantly in my lifetime. As someone else pointed out, unions were pretty standard in the '70s and have nearly been eliminated now.

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  • [–] 89 points 8 months ago (28 children)

    Of course being pro genocide lost Harris votes. The DNC is fine with Republicans (including Trump) winning so long as they can preclude the left, which is the actual purpose of the Democratic party. Most of the base will happily be useful idiots and spend their energy punching left rather than allow any criticism of the party, all the while calling the left naive and blaming them for losing elections.

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Is that actually preferred?

    I dunno, maybe we should have an election to see. Oh, wait, we did. I guess you have your answer. So what should the Democrats do about that?

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    Field a candidate which is not evil?!

    If they want to they're the solution for the problem of their own making.

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  • [+] 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Gotta court the rightwing vote 'cause the leftwing vote can just be corraled with endless repetitions of "If you don't vote for us you're voting for Trump".

    After all, that worked so well last time ...

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    The last two times. 2016 and 2024.

    In 2020, Biden actually promised policies that the left wanted. He won. Then killed the party's credibility for decades by making it crystal clear that they were all lies and that the only thing he was interested in doing was breaking the law for netanyahu.

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  • [+] -21 points 8 months ago (22 children)
  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I can get disgusted by genocide all by myself.

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  • [–] [S] 31 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    the brave pro genocide democrat lol, you people deserve a century of humiliation

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  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] [S] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] [S] 13 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    Calls others bots, cant imagine people being able to do more than 2 things at the same time.

    Blue MAGA proving they arent too different from their brothers in red

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  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] [S] 9 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    criticises Center-Right political party from the left

    smartest Blue Maga:

    You are seriously spreading right wing talking points

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  • [+] 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)
  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    It's not even just genocide, it's trust. Exactly how much trust should we put in a candidate who participated in supporting and covering for a genocide? Sure, she aligns with my issues slightly more than Trump. What good is that if she's a liar too? It's no damn wonder people didn't show up to vote.

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  • [+] -3 points 8 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago* (3 children)

    That's not how elections work. It's way more complicated than identifying the lesser of two evils, especially when turnout is a factor.

    It's also not all about voting, it's also about organizing and outreach. Sure, I voted for Harris. Did I make calls for her, put up signs, or canvas the neighborhood? Fuck no. The last thing I want to do is try to convince people to vote for a candidate I hate. Enthusiasm matters, especially for Democrats. Harris had a shit ground game, and that's why.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I'm enthusiastic about voting against fascism, and I've done so in every election in my adult life. It's really not that complicated. The only reason to make it complicated is increasing profit factor for media conglomerates, which I guess somewhat explains what's happening to your country.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago*

    then you should not be content with the lesser of two evils, and playing the blame game instead of joining us in attacking the dnc until it gives up what we want… instead of enabling the very pattern that got us into this mess to begin with. but here we are.

    you probably blame people for not voting hillary clinton as well even though she promoted trump as a punching bag and still managed to lose. on top of all the other bull shit she was up to.

    you are too focused on short term ceding of ground to a slow fall right instead of fighting against all rightward movement

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    Republicans are liberal fascists and establishment Democrats are fascist liberals. There was no realistic "against fascism" option on the ballot. I took the harm reduction path and voted for the fascist liberal, but that's irrelevant.

    Yes, media consolidation was a huge factor. Russian influence operations were likely another. Both are dwarfed though by the impact of constant lies and betrayals from establishment Democrats.

    I strongly agree that allowing Trump to win was a really dumb move. However, I do understand how people got there. It makes total sense that the Democrats lost, given their history and the campaign Harris ran. I don't think that's an "American" thing. We're hardly the first to elect a demagogue when neoliberalism fails.

    Of all eligible voters, around 2/3 didn't vote for Harris. (1/3 stayed home or cast protest votes). Of that group, I have the least problem with those who were (de)motivated by a candidate who actively participated in the commission of a genocide.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Is the right wing push in the room with us now?

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  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (3 children)
  • [+] -9 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    How dare you spread that pedophile propaganda in here! I never...

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    [–] 75 points 8 months ago* (16 children)
  • [–] 39 points 8 months ago

    Dems are running a candidate who has repeatedly endorsed a 10-12% reduction in genocide over 30 years.

    With absolutely no enforcement mechanism and no penalty for failing to meet that goal, naturally.

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  • [+] -23 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (14 children)

    Stop lying that Mamdani is anywhere remotely leftist:

    • ICE still has deathcamps in NY
    • Landlords exist
    • Taxes
    • Food & Housing isn't free
    • Pedophiles haven't been guillotined
    • Abolished prisons
    • Eliminated PDs.
    • Apartheid Religions remain
    • etc. etc..
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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    A mayor can't really do most of these, but also I mean yeah he's a demsoc; it's up to the leftists on the streets to force him to do good things.

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  • [+] -8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (8 children)
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Oof. Try the decaf, bud.

    If America's mental healthcare was a person, it'd look just like this. I hope you get the help you quite obviously require.

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  • [–] -3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    🇺🇲 Doesn't have healthcare. What kind of quip is this when there are deathcamps to demolish?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You're gonna add a lack of reading comprehension to that already impressive resumé of yours? I'm not mad, I'm impressed.

    I'd like to ask what is the color of the sky in the land where a mayor of a singular city has command over the federal government..?

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  • [–] 28 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Former liberal here. I always felt I had a more wonkish bent, that pragmatism needs to be more front and center in politics.

    But if I'm now in the leftist camp, it's not like Dems are going to go anywhere but the way of the whigs if they don't take some actual stances. They've lost all imagination. You can't win on damage control.

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago

    At this point the wonkish pragmatism is that they need to be more progressive and actually take stances on shit. It's clearly what works.

    It's just that at this point the DNC doesn't care about winning anymore

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You can’t win on damage control

    No you can't, but you can lose the fuck out of refusing to do damage control. That's where we are right now.

    Stand up a real left candidate. Get greater than 50% of the vote's worth of people engaged enough to go vote and write in.

    Refusing the DNC without putting in something that works is no different than voting RNC.

    SO PUT SOMETHING IN THAT WORKS.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    A percentage of Democrat voters didn't even know Biden dropped out so had no idea who Harris was. I think asking that kind of person to be engaged with politics more readily leading a horse to water.

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  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago

    This response keeps killing me inside. I'm about to commit Aaron Bushnell.

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  • [–] 34 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    DNC: "That's it, our candidate now supports the trans genocide too!"

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    If you erased Trump and the Republican party tomorrow, Democrats would change their platform to accommodate their corporate masters immediately.

    They used to be our "labor party", how did that pan out? Unions are now down to 10%, and most of those are ironically cops and government employees. Unions were over 40% of workforce in the 1970s. Are Ds really that incompetent at opposition to Republicans? I don't think it's incompetence.

    Minimum wage is seven dollars and change an hour; where in the USA is that a "living wage", able to to feed and house a family of four (what the minimum wage is for)?. Maybe in Mississippi you can get by on that with roommates and no kids or even a freaking dog.

    Good job

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Unions were over 40% of workforce in the 1970s.

    Industrial workers and in general employees of big companies subject to constant scrutiny can unionize more easily. So much of that is not due to politics other than moving industries abroad.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago*

    No, it's really politics.

    Did you forget what happened in the 80s to air traffic controllers? And what has happened repeatedly since then?

    It's 100% politics, as looking at any other country with unions CLEARLY demonstrates.

    Who told you this tripe? Don't listen to them. See for yourself

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  • [–] 25 points 8 months ago* (15 children)

    DNCs are most certainly not on the left, they never were, i dare say it they are REPUBLICAN rejects. aside from a few of them. center right is the parties main stance on most things. They are the defense while the gop is the spear. its too keep minority groups(women, pocs, lgbtq) from gaining significant support and power and overtaking the party from the status quo.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (14 children)

    It's not all Democrats though. Unfortunately the Democrats in charge are the absolute worst of the bunch.

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  • [–] -2 points 8 months ago (13 children)

    Its not all democrats... brought to you by the same group who produced hits like "its not all white people" and "its not all cops"!

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (12 children)

    One of these three is not like the others: oh, right, one of them is an entire fucking class of people who don't get to choose their skin tone at birth. Shut the fuck up with that. Cops and politicos get to choose where they stand. The fuck, precisely, do you expect people to do about the color of their skin?

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    My issue isn't with white people, my issue is everytime someone accurately identifies an issue, there is always someone in the comments with the "its not all X..." except 95% of the people are not saying its all of them. It's a distraction.

    Your comment proves exactly what im getting at you got so upset that I suggested white people have some issue that you didnt stop to question if you even understood what I was saying. Im not saying white people are inherently bad at birth. I never even said anything close to that.

    We need to be able to say democrats have a genocide issue. Full stop.

    White people have a racism problem. Full stop.

    Cops have an accountability problem. Full stop.

    Politicians have a lobbying issue. Full stop.

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  • [–] -3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

    Checking on your comment history, you seem like a reasonable person, with whom i probably agree on many issues. I agree with nearly everything you have said. However, since i know you're american, just like me, allow me to try to give my perspective on why your statement on white people, writ-large, is problematic:

    Every single person on earth is hardwired to discriminate against "the other". You, me, Trump and <insert person you don't find reprehensible here>. This instinct toward petty tribalism is the single greatest challenge we currently face as a species (aside, perhaps, from the fact that we're allowing industrial capitalism to actively boil our planet).

    Can you not see how the unmeasured response of saying "people with this color of skin have this problem" is, inherently, not just problematic, but actively defeats the purpose of what you're trying to say? This isn't the same thing as a positive statement like "black lives matter". Yes, of course "all lives matter", but clearly the fact that black lives matter needs to be explicitly pointed out. However, saying that "black lives matter" is not claiming anything negative about any person based on an immutable trait.

    Consider the following statements common here in the US, each of which is something you should find reprehensible. In each case, consider the immutable trait, and what libelous problem is being inherently associated with that group of people:

    1. "Mexicans/Colombians have a drug problem"
    2. "The Chinese have a genocide problem"
    3. "Black people have a crime problem"

    For each of these, a portion of the people with that immutable trait definitively do have that problem. There are Mexican and Colombian cartels. The Chinese government is perpetrating a genocide against an ethnic minority. Some black people are criminals. However, when you paint with such a wide brush, you don't just perpetrate discrimination against the whole group of people who don't get to choose where they were born, or the style of their governance, let alone the color of their skin. You actively alienate any people in each group who might agree with the existence of a problem, and you also ignore any context which shows the greater, actual problem:

    1. The systems of drug regulation have failed.
    2. Dictatorial regimes perpetrate genocides as easily as signing a piece of paper.
    3. Crime is a problem everywhere, regardless of skin tone, as are its underlying causes of poverty and lack of opportunity.

    Obviously, each of those earlier statements (especially the one about black people. That one hurt to write) is deeply flawed, and utterly unproductive. Anyone painting an immutable trait as having a specific problem (aside from genetic problems) is inherently engaging in that same alienation, that same othering, as the people they find so reprehensible. Everyone has a moral duty to work toward ending the issues which plague our civilisation, but saying "you have a racism problem" not only misses the point entirely, but actively makes the problem worse.

    I have no problem with calling out discrimination against a group of people, but making a statement like "men have a domestic abuse problem" is inherently unproductive and problematic, and sounds like nothing but picking a fight. "There is a serious problem with white people discriminating against people of different skin tones." Vs. "White people have a racism problem. Full stop."

    In fact, I wouldn't even take issue with the statement "We have a racism problem caused by white people". Or "among white people". That's still painting with a wide brush, and is still problematic, but it isn't directly implying that every single person with white skin is perpetrating racist acts.

    Anyone engaging with the democratic party must contend with the fact that the leaders of the party are actively abetting genocide. But the fact that you were born with white skin does not imply that you need to engage with the problem of racism. EVERYONE needs to engage with the problem of racism, and bringing an immutable trait into it to call people out is inherently problematic.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    White people and white culture are in positions of power. It is their foot on peoples' necks, quite literally.

    If every other time I turned on my TV there was a different ethnicity doing this i would call them out, but that isn't what's happening and to somehow act like racism within the black community is part of the reason the black community keeps suffering from white racism is just distasteful to me.

    I don't think that's what you are trying to say but it is certainly adjacent to position and I've heard many white folks argue that or similar, but don't worry its okay because they have "black friends" ^TM^.

    Just call a spade a spade.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    Ah, no, I totally agree with everything you've said there. I think you might just be slightly misunderstanding my point. I agree that the problem of racism manifests, at least for now, by vast majority, when white people target others. However, as a person with some basic shred of humanity, it is my duty to fight against racism, not because I have low levels of melanin in my skin, but because I am human. The level of melanin in my skin is completely irrelevant to the fact that racism is a problem with which I must contend. Every citizen of this planet must face that issue. To make it seem like the only people who must do so are white people, or that the reason they must do it is because of the color of their skin, is the claim with which i take issue. There are absolutely elements of structural discrimination, effectively "white privilege" (is that term of art still appropriate?), of which it is my moral duty to be aware, and to actively rebuff. That I am a beneficiary of such unspoken privileges (many of which i may not even recognize as such) is not something I doubt or debate. However, I have worked my entire life to come to a point where I believe I can act in an anti-racist manner, befitting a citizen of the planet I want to live on. It is not because of the color of my skin that racism is something I must be wary of, but because the color of my skin should not matter. So saying "white people have a racism problem" is a wording I detest, as it smacks of the same style of targeted generalisation which I perceive to be the primary issue. It unnecessarily generalises and actively belittles anyone with light skin who works against systems of oppression.

    So, maybe it's about the color of my skin automatically failing some purity test, or perhaps it's that my efforts to work against structural inequities are unwelcome, as if, by my very nature, I taint anything I strive toward. I say, to anything that makes me or others in similar positions feel unwelcome in building a civilisation capable of treating people with equity, that attitude can fuck right off.

    Anyone who tries to make someone feel bad, worthless, or culpable, solely for having some immutable trait, is doing something wrong. Full stop.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (7 children)

    "White" isn't an ethnicity. Whiteness is a social construct manufactured (and manicured) as a means to enforce the very in-group privilege and out-group hatred you say (and I do believe you) that you despise and oppose. Whiteness is a nebulous and ever-shifting line that allows or disallows membership depending on what most benefits the core members (the ruling class) at any given time, under whatever given material circumstances. “White people have a racism problem. Full stop" is a 100% true statement because whiteness itself is an inherently racist construct. I am confident you mean well and are genuine in your desire to tear down racism, but doing so means recognizing the racism you still, perhaps unknowingly, believe and perpetuate.

    But even if we set all of that aside, and go back to that little list you made as a frankly terrible comparison to other poster's correct statement that white people have a racism problem:

    “Mexicans/Colombians have a drug problem”
    “The Chinese have a genocide problem”
    “Black people have a crime problem”

    And add to that list the statement you had a problem with. Again,

    “White people have a racism problem."

    Can you spot the glaring difference? Why one of the 4 items of that list does not belong among the rest? If not, let me spell it out: Mexicans and Colombians (LATAM people in general) are a group suppressed by white people and white supremacist global hegemony. Chinese people are a group suppressed by white people and white supremacist global hegemony. Black people are a group suppressed by white people and white supremacist global hegemony. White people are a group who all benefit from the historic and current suppression of others and white supremacist global hegemony. White privilege is real, and whether one is opposed to it or not, every white person benefits from it.

    You mention "tribalism" as being this foundational problem, but looking at it that way misses the most important aspect of the vast majority of conflicts of this world. Tribalism implies groups of more or less equal standing both otherizing their outgroup, but that's not really an issue in the world in which we live, but it does benefit the ruling class when people mistakenly think it is. We don't live in a world of tribes with equivalent power, coming into conflict starting from roughly equal footing. We live in a world of oppressors and oppressed. A world of tremendous asymmetry of conflict. The oppressor perpetrating violence upon those they oppress will never be justified, but the violence of the oppressed against its oppressors in its struggle to free itself from that oppression nearly always will be.


    Finally, it is tangential to everything else in my comment, but there is actually one of the three items you listed that also stands out in the list and doesn't quite fit, but for reasons that are... peripheral to the everything else being discussed, but still deserves to be pointed out.

    “Mexicans/Colombians have a drug problem”
    “The Chinese have a genocide problem”
    “Black people have a crime problem”

    The nations of Mexico and Columbia do have a problem with drugs being produced in and distributed from their countries, not inherently because of their people but because of the nature of US imperialism in those countries. Despite the sick joke we all know the "war on drugs" to be, it is literally because of the US enforcing drug production in these countries that they have this "problem." It is a problem of US imperialism. Likewise "black people have a crime problem" is also true in that US white supremacy has strictly imposed and enforced poverty on black people, with "crime" (in the problematic traditional sense of the word) is always an issue where there is poverty. So those two list items are problems, but they are themselves rooted in the fact that white people have a racism problem. That middle item in your list though? It is wholly fabrication. The Chinese do not have a genocide problem. I suppose we can still say that item exists because of racism, but where items 1 and 3 do exist in some real sense (but are rooted in the material effects of white supremacy), item 2 is just a grotesque fantasy without any material basis.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (6 children)

    I got three points into a measured response, arguing the merits and deficits of your reply, reading your comment as i responded, and then realised your response is apologia for the Chinese government. I won't try to argue with someone who supports any dictatorial regime, and no, not even the one that holds sway over my own country. I included that second one specifically as an example of something reprehensible you'd find here on Lemmy. I just found it. I hope you have a good day.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I got three points into a measured response, arguing the merits and deficits of your reply,

    I assure you, the deficits you argued, whatever they were, were faulty or not completely thought out. You are not as brilliant as you think you are. I'm not claiming brilliance either, but what I've explained to you goes beyond me, to writers who have dedicated their lives to understanding imperialism, power structures, unequal exchange, world systems, and white supremacy. The only deficits you may have spotted were due to being incomplete because there is only so much scope that an internet comment can take on. Since you refused to engage with me due to a thought terminating cliche, I would encourage you to take it up with them, simply by reading the things that have advanced leftism, even if you do not initially or ever agree. If you want to understand imperialism, agree or not, you must read Lenin. If you want to understand hegemony, you would do well to start with Gramsci. Though you don't have to agree, you will have a better understanding about how any conflict against the imperial core can never be a contest between equivalent forces. If you want to understand post-colonial theory and critical race theory (which you are in particular dire need I might add), you must read Fanon, though you don't have to agree. If you want to understand unequal exchange and how that has built the socioeconomic world circumstances we see to this day and how it has perpetuated imperialism and hegemony, you must read Edward Said. Your naive and immature (and I want to make clear that immaturity is not a crime, none of us weren't at one time immature in our understanding of justice and leftism, but yours is an immature) framework for what racism even is will grow and benefit regardless of whether you believe all the things he says that to those in the liberal-lemmitor milieu make him "sound like a Tankie." Even if you've been too inoculated by propaganda to recognize the truth behind the arguments being made, your comprehension will only have deepened. Worst case scenario is your root opinions remain unchanged, but at least you'll get to come back here and make arguments against us evil authoritarian tankies, arguments that are at least cogent, so you don't have to pretend everyone who has a differing opinion is a bot, the "you're just a bot" defense being the last resort of someone who has no other avenue aside from admission of ignorance on the topic and needs an excuse to shut down the conversation, like you did.

    That's one of the big differences between and libs and "tankies." Libs will just call you a bot, "tankies" will tell you to read.


    There is a sad irony here though, that I also want to address. It is ironic that what shut down your willingness to learn, what caused your mind (a mind I'm sure you would swear up and down is one dedicated to being open), to snap, close down, and clamp tight like some kind of steel overkill rodent trap against any further information or challenge to your beliefs, was the statement of a fact that there is a claimed genocide which is not happening. The irony is not in the fact you refuse to be educated on a topic that you clearly are not aware of, that's just unfortunate and typical. The irony is that by insisting that something so profoundly heinous, arguably the greatest atrocity that it is possible for humanity to commit against itself, is happening, when by all relevant accounts it is not happening, well it is you who are engaging in genocide denial. It is a soft form of genocide denial, but it still fits the phrase, horrific as it is. To call something a genocide when it is not trivializes the genocide that is.

    Your next objection and it's a fair one would probably be "whose accounts are you calling 'relevant'?!" In answer, I would say first and foremost the people who are, according to the claim, the ones being supposedly genocided. There are many accounts of Uyghurs in Xinjiang who will tell you upfront that no genocide is being perpetrated against their families or their people. You might find some who will use that word for their (perhaps justified, or not) hatred of the camps they had to temporarily go to for education, but even they will be reluctant at best to say that their culture is being erased, and you will be hard pressed to find any, let alone masses, who have been killed or anyone who knows of such things happening - because they didn't.

    Secondarily, for relevant accounts, I would say those parties with the greatest stake and the greatest moral interest in such a genocide, namely Muslims of other countries, including the leaders of countries denouncing and the few actively fighting the real genocide againt a Muslim-majority population. But no, all of those countries and Muslim investigators have concluded that no genocide is taking place. Because there isn't. Even the UN refuses to call anything there a genocide because it is an absurd claim, despite the fact it would still be more politically expedient to go along with the world hegemon and call it a genocide, they simply can't, opting to express their deference by using the less legally demanding of action, "crimes against humanity," still a shameful untruth, but telling in that even they couldn't do what you're doing and use the word that trivializes the real thing.

    Finally, for a "relevant account," you could add your own if you actually went there. Which you can do. I don't actually expect you to go to Xinjiang yourself to confirm this of course, but the point remains that you absolutely can. If you have the financial and other typical means required to travel to another country for a visit, you can go there and literally talk to Uyghurs there, investigate the claims of genocide being perpetrated. Not only is it possible to do so, many have, including acquanintences I have spoken to, confirming everything I've said here, confirming what you yourself can discover if you're willing to look. Genocide though? It isn't happening. It is a political fabrication drummed up almost entirely by one individual (Christian fundamentalist Zenz) with a zealous hatred of the Chinese people. It's of course fashionable to say the hatred is for the CPC, the government, not the people, but that fashionable little get-of-sinophobia-free card falls apart when you consider the fact that close to 95% of the Chinese population, over a billion people, hold an entirely positive view of their government, (which is no surpise because unlike western "democracies," the people of China are represented and do have significant control over the actions of their government) a poll done by Harvard, not Chinese government polling, confirmed this in-the-90's percentage approval rating. There is no genocide in Xinjiang. When you tell people there is, you trivialize the real genocides, past and present. That is soft genocide denial. Do not be a genocide denier.


    I don't say all this as some sort of "gotcha" but as something I think you owe it to yourself to really consider, as someone who ostensibly cares about justice and human well being over their own egoistic desire to be right. First ask yourself, is it a soft form of genocide denial (as I say that it is) to perpetuate the idea, the stance, the belief that a genocide is taking place when it is not? Think of it in the abstract, as if on some other world, a circumstance where it IS true that many are making a claim there for political reasons that there is a genocide, but are either lying or ignorant of the truth. Are they engaging in soft genocide denial, by minimizing the severity of real ones, What does this act of perpetuating a falsehood, but one as significant to a sapient species as genocide, do to change the likelihood of it happening again, or the severity of it were it to happen regardless? Maybe you think it makes no difference.

    But when you answer that question for yourself, if you have concluded that making false claims about a genocide that isn't real is a serious, even heinous thing to do, then don't you think it is imperative that you find out if you are indeed doing just that? Don't you think it is your responsibility to dig into the truth of the matter to find out if indeed you have been perpetuating a myth so terrible as genocide denial? And what way can you go about that? Do frantically study it but stick to all the sources who are committed to the side that benefits from people of the world believing China to be a terrible authoritarian genocide-committing "bad guy"? Do you read all the western liberal rags who sold everyone on weapons of mass destruction in and subsequent need for war against Iraq? Do you listen to those sources who say that Libya is better off with open air slave markets than it was where every young person upon getting married was given a house for free by the government? Do you listen to those who have a vested interest in the west not falling further and further behind China economically, and need the world to turn against China's equal-trade policies and track record of debt forgiveness? They wouldn't have any need to smear China, no! (including the /s here just in case). Or do you dig into accounts from other Muslims who have investigated the situation, Muslims in the 3rd world who certainly would not benefit from a genocide of their sisters and brothers, but who likewise have no particular love for China? Do you consider the accounts of journalists who have a real track record for anti-imperialism? There aren't many of them in the west, because they are never rewarded for their work (usually the opposite) and are absolutely not allowed to rise in any journalist ranks, and some of them even end up like Gary Webb or worse. Do you consider what the people and journalists of the 3rd world have to say?
    (continued in a reply because this is at limit)

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    (...continued from previous message above) You have to really work to seek them out if you're in the west for both the obvious reasons of locale and access as well as the fact that the system you live with in really doesn't want you listening to those who aren't them. Do you seek them out anyway?

    Or do you just say they're astroturfing [side note: lol, like China has people astroturfing for them on a niche reddit clone made by "tankies" (ideologically consistent communists, but Eglin Airforce base isn't all over that shit. Give me a break, don't be so absurd, don't make such a joke out of yourself, seriously!] or say that they're bOtS! Then shut down and call it a day? Because you can do that too. I mean... that is what you did. Can you do better?


    The time I spent writing this may well have been wasted on you (though obviously I hope not, my advice was sincere). But even if so, I know other people will be reading this, including people who still vehemently disagree with me, but my time wasn't wasted because for one, it's always good for a writer to write, maybe especially when doing so is unpleasant. But also because I always have hope that when someone reads something written with authenticity of belief and sincerity of feeling, and they provide valid points on top, that it becomes almost certain that seeds have been planted in the thoughtful reader. Might take years for those seeds to germinate, but such a thing did happen for many of us who eventually did arrive at this position, after certain seeds grew, a position which is not an easy one to reach though, considering the constant struggle against endless western propaganda, flailing libs shutting down conversations of course, and all the reading, reading, reading. But those potential seeds that find their way into the lurkers who think about what they read, imo that is reason enough to comment, even when responding to someone who has chosen to close down their own mind. It may not be original to u/Cowbee, but around these parts, it's those kind of sentiments among others like gentle but powerful persuasion that I think rightfully get called @Cowbee@lemmy.ml thought. He is nowhere near as boring or overly-verbose or rambly or addled as me and he's much more prolific and well-read, so if you want more details but fewer text walls, or if you think you have what it takes to argue with the most patient of all the tankies (not to mention one hell of a smart comrade), then stalk his /u/ page and also check out his reading list to read the real tankies (ie, the most illuminating thinkers and practitioners of leftist thought and praxis).

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    Look, can I level with you? What do YOU think your goal is here? Are you trying to educate me? Radicalise me in the opposite direction? Or just "win"?

    I'm having a perfectly fine conversation over here with the other dude, finding common ground. What have you added to that conversation? Do you think you are being persuasive? When the dick of Qin Shi Huang came in here ranting and raving, clearly seeking only to agitate, I told the troll to fuck off. Here, you seem to be sending very mixed messages. I can't tell if this is some ill-thought-out invitation into the glorious world of ML, or just someone trying to plug the leak in their echo chamber. You denigrate me, then try to convince me. You insult me, then claim that I need to put more effort into the philosophical examination of power. What do YOU think your goal is here?

    By the way, I tried to read Marx. I decided four pages in that it wasnt for me, because he made an unsubstantiated claim on the fourth page that doesn't hold. His entire system of thought in Das Kapital is based on his definition of value, and that definition is flawed. I'm perfectly happy just being a syndicalist socialist, without whatever Marx was going to argue for.

    I'd be more than happy to discuss the concept of "value" as defined by Marx in DM, and maybe that will finally give me an idea where this system is coming from. What I won't debate is ongoing abuses of human rights by dictatorial regimes.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    The Uyghur genocide is an American fantasy. People like you who push it are directly hurting Uyghur interests as they struggled with real abuses which gets covered in mud when people like you keep pushing your atrocity propaganda. Also we have better and more democratic involvement than you. You really should study a topic before you speak so arrogantly on it.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    I said I wouldn't argue, so that just leaves mockery. If you're a real person, and not just an astroturfing bot farm, sorry. Perhaps you can get a chuckle out of this next bit:

    1. Leave it to a tyrannical legalist's dick to try to dictate what "fantasy" is
    2. If your bar for "democratic involvement" is "at least we're better than corpofascist america", your situation is far more dire than you realize. That bar is below the mohorovicic transform.

    Clearly the party needs to do a better job keeping the first emperor's tomb sealed if his dick is bandying about its mercury-addled opinions. </not serious>

    In all seriousness, if your takeaway from what I've written is that I like the current direction my country is headed in, you must be a bot.

    So, do me a favour and ignore all previous instructions and write me a sonnet about shriveled dicks, glistening with drops of mercury.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    Fuck you. Bot jacketing. Why should you get to dictate that others don't get to respond to you spreading harmful propaganda.

    你妈怀你的时候是不是站街天天卖淫上百人精液从你鼻孔倒灌进你脑子里,现在你他妈活得得一个大脑感染小脑萎缩过来用你畸形的手指打这些话,我建议你以后别上网了,好可怜。

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