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[–] 85 points 8 months ago

I heard a story from Japan where an American business man was sarcastic and the meeting got quiet. He was like “it’s a joke because-“

“We got it. We just thought it was inappropriate “

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  • [–] 30 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (30 children)

    Edit: I stand corrected, see replies

    (Not first-hand knowledge) I read somewhere that tonal languages such as Chinese make it difficult to express sarcasm the same way Indo-European languages do, with accent and inflection.

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  • [–] 24 points 8 months ago (16 children)

    This made me think, and I realized that non-tonal languages actually do have a tonal aspect to them.

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago*

    Non-tonal simply means the denotation isn't carried by tone, not that users of the language don't use tone. It's an interesting distinction.

    John McWhorter has a few courses in The Great Courses catalog about language - its pretty fascinating stuff. He covers things like tonal languages, and how even for a linguist like himself, they're tough to learn.

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    True, otherwise it would be monotone, though some people speak in a monotone voice that can put you to sleep.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    Me as a native finnish speaker making every english speaker in a meeting unsure of my meanig

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago (9 children)
  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Finnish people are stereotyped to sound monotone, enunciate clearly, speak directly, and tersely. This makes them seem unfriendly.

    And then they expect you to stay 3 m away from them at all times, which intensifies their seeming unfriendliness.

    At least these are the memes.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    As others explained, finnish is pretty flat and that carries to the other languages I speak. To english mostly, I refuse to speak swedish

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    From what I've learned from memes is that there is "enmity" between Swedes and Finns, am I correct?

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I wouldn't say so. Finns might feel like the little brother and feel unease about that. In practice there are lots of personal and commersial ties. Many have family in Sweden, me included.

    We don't expect Sweden to send troops if Russia tries to invade, planes and ships, maybe the odd submarine but no troops. At least that seems to be the sentiment

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    They absolutely do. Even within the same language, regional accents can have very different prosodies.
    I recall reading a Nature article iirc about how neonatal cry melody can reflect prenatal exposure to parental language! How nuts is that!? Brains are cool.
    eta: Found it: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209018247

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    (Not first-hand knowledge) I read somewhere that tonal languages such as Chinese make it difficult to express sarcasm the same way Indo-European languages do, with accent and inflection.

    First hand knowledge, I'm Chinese American. My mom is from Taishan and I grew up in Guangzhou for the first 8 years before immigrating to the US. My mom uses scarcasm a lot. We speak Cantonese at home.

    Example:

    "我想去睇橋" ("I wanna go see the bridge"; a euphemism for I want to go to the nearest bridge and jump off to kms, and my mom knows the meaning of this btw)

    Mom: "喂,使唔使載埋你去啊?" ("Hey, do you want us to drive you there?"; said in a very unusally happy and uplifting tone, as if she'd be glad to see me die (I mean... not really, I don't think she really wants to see me die, I hope not, she's just playing mindgames to "stop me from 'attention seeking'", she doesn't understand what depression is.)

    Or sometimes I get mad and refused to eat and mom was like: "哇,係唔係想練神仙啊?亦好呀,慳返啲食嘅。" ("Wow, are you trying to become an immortal being? That's great, we can save some food"; again, with that weird "fake happy" voice.

    And I instictively knew these were sarcasm.

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    I just did a quick research on tonal languages, it's quite tricky for a beginner to grasp these subtle expressions. Imagine a life without sarcasm. Brutal. I wonder if they have their own way of conveying it.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    Sarcasm can be conveyed non-verbally. Through facial expressions, gestures or situational context for example. The core concept is not bound to specific languages but to the social/cognitive ability of the communicators, I'd say. Young children have a very hard time with sarcasm, regardless of where they're born.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

    Even in English, sarcasm can be delivered very dryly in a way that would be undetectable without knowing context. It doesn't need to be spoken with exaggerated tones. I do it too much.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago

    Someone commented that his sarcasm was lost with, mostly, religious folks in Oklahoma, and I realized that yes it happened to me too plenty of times (but not in Oklahoma). So yeah, even in English it can be elusive to some people.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    First-hand knowledge (I'm Cantonese), we have sarcasm.

    I find it hard to believe that sarcasm can't exist in some languages, honestly; just say something in an exaggerated tone while you mean the opposite.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago

    Nooooo, not at allll. /s

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Oh SURE. That makes so much sense that a culture would lack "sarcasm". I can TOTALLY see that being a thing.

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  • [–] 16 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I've done a little bit of language studying and one thing I heard about repeatedly is that people tend to mistakenly believe in their own exceptionalism.

    Like, their own native language has idioms, and they just assumed that other languages didn't have idioms.

    But we are all humans and languages are all going to exist in support of human communication. Therefore, you should assume that all languages have all major features of expression, including idioms and sarcasm.

    Similarly, cultures are made from humans and to facilitate human interaction, so you should expect that things like sarcasm will exist in every culture.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    So sarcasm would exist but not the way we understand it, does it mean that sarcasm is an intrinsic part of human nature?

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    A basic building block to humor is a subversion of expectations. Sarcasm is just stating things as the opposite of the intended meaning. Sarcasm is, in essence, the base level that most humor is built upon, and because of that is looked down on because it is "easy mode."

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Reminds me of a funny memory from the far distant past when a friend of mine, in a middle school Spanish class, expressed surprise that Spanish speakers use rhymes.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Oh I would certainly think it's the norm but I do wonder if there's some culture somewhere that really is just that literal. Like shit we don't know what the sentinelese (but they definitely give a dark sense of humor vibe).

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    In Vietnam sarcasm is limited. Particularly in the countryside.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    There has to be. There's loads of people on the internet that never recognize it even when it's incredibly obvious or has an /s.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I lived in Oklahoma for 3 years and it took me ages to find a group of friends who understood sarcasm. I mean, even the drag queen server at my regular bar seemed baffled by sarcasm.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    There is a constructed language that I suspect is free from sarcasm. (At least if it's used formally)

    Lojban, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Definitely China and maybe Japan. In American culture I feel sarcasm is fun banter but coming to China and in Chinese it just makes one look like a jerk. I’m less proficient in Japanese so I cannot fully tell how my sarcasm was taken but I’m assuming a similar reception.

    Look at the translations for sarcasm: 讽刺,反话.

    Looking up the definition of sarcasm in Japanese I have no idea what this kanji is supposed to mean lmao 皮肉

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    Sarcasm can be used to be inclusive to someone (I'm saying this thing we both know to be untrue, imagine thinking otherwise! We understand one another.) or derisive (I'm saying this stupid thing you'd probably think is true because you're an idiot and I want to make sure you know it.) I know friendly people who do the former a lot and nasty people who exclusively do the latter. I wonder if the former is more difficult to achieve among a foreign culture with a second language.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Some ahole from my old cult claimed Spanish doesn't have sarcasm, but that can't be true. Every Spanish speaker I've ever met has been more sarcastic than an American teenager.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Oh suuuure!

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I once heard about a tribe in South America. Say a man had four wives. If he was asked how many wives he had, and in that moment he only could see two of them, he had to answer "I have two wifes". I wonder if in this culture sarcasm would be a thing.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    It seems that people in this culture can only talk about what they see. Or the guy lacks object permanence.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    This might be about the languages where the only "numbers" they have are "zero", "one", "a few" and "many".

    If a conversation was held in English, then for the speaker "two" and "four" are synonyms.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago