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NFL world in disbelief over Bill Belichick Hall of Fame announcement (www.usatoday.com)
submitted 9 months ago by to c/nfl@lemmy.world
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[–] 28 points 9 months ago (16 children)

We reserve Hall of Fame spots for coaches with properly inflated balls

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  • [–] 18 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    To be fair the NFL admitted in court they didn't actually have evidence they deflated the balls, then the appeals court ruled that according to the collective bargaining agreement the commissioner didn't actually need evidence and he could suspend player's whenever he wanted...

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  • [+] 1 point 9 months ago (4 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Um, I'm very familiar with the evidence, and I re-read large swaths of the Wikipedia article to make sure I was not misremembering, so I gotta ask, what evidence do you think there was?

    In terms of evidence that they did not deflate the balls let's start with the Ideal Gas Law. Next, during the game in question the NFL started testing the Colts balls as well and found 3 of 4 were also low, then they stopped testing them, how odd. Then it came out that the NFL intentionally deleted evidence from the rest of the 2015 season of pressure measurements which would have aligned with the so called "deflated" balls. Next, statistical analysis of Tom Brady's passing metrics indicate he plays better with higher inflated balls, not lower. Notable is that he had better numbers in the second half of the Colts game, after the refs "properly inflated the balls" than in the first half. Next, the NFL to this day has refused to admit they had an issue with lack of consistent PSI inflation of footballs, yet they redid their entire process after that season and there hasn't been an issue with under or overinflated balls again. Last, this lovely quote from the Wikipedia article you told me to read, when asked by a judge what evidence there was against Brady the NFL lawyer said there was: "no direct evidence Mr. Brady clearly knew about this."

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    This is what fake smart people look like

    let’s start with the Ideal Gas Law

    You didn't even explain the gas law let alone prove that temperature was the factor

    Next, statistical analysis of Tom Brady’s passing metrics indicate he plays better with higher inflated balls, not lower.

    People do unethical things because they think it will benefit them. You didn't even prove it didn't benefit him you just asserted it based on...

    . Notable is that he had better numbers in the second half of the Colts game, after the refs “properly inflated the balls” than in the first half.

    This.. isn't a meaningful sample. It's impossible to draw any conclusion from it. The fact that you think you can indicates that you don't understand statistics or analysis.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    Can of worms right there… I wonder if they're gonna hold Brady to the same standard or if they find some other excuse to rationalize not holding deflategate against him.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Brady won a SuperBowl in Tampa and still had one of the longest careers of any player in history.

    I hated him, but even I have to admit he deserves the HoF.

    Belichik not only has the multiple cheating scandals over his head, he also just plain sucked without Brady. To the point where the Patriots had to fire him. Honestly Bill might have been better off if he just retired a few years sooner.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    Ok, but Brady was involved in the same scandals Belichick was; if anything, for whatever you think deflategate is worth, Brady was directly involved in it more than Belichick ever could be. So again, this is the mental gymnastics you have to do when you have people who have long since provided evidence that their achievements are legitimate, but people want to believe otherwise so they cling to any crackpot controversy to justify their denials.
    As for Belichick's record without Brady, you can say all you want about it, but to take a fraction of this man's career and give the credit for every success to the QB, while leaving out the context of his failures, is maliciously disingenuous. The guy built the SB winning Ravens defense that carried Trent Dilfer, and did it again in New England, but because of the Browns' relocation got railroaded and doesn't get credit for those moves. And the revisionist history is even more insulting when people forget Brady only made 3 TD passes on the first SB run; he wasn't lighting the world on fire for those first few years; the defense was the one that stopped the Greatest Show on Turf. And I'm not even saying the man was perfect, but even with his failures post Brady, people act like Kraft didn't interfere with his succession plan, then threw him under the bus when it got messy. The game passes everybody eventually, but it's bad faith to pretend his entire 3 decade career was made by Brady, taking everything out of context.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

    I only even reluctantly add Brady to the HoF, because he went to a completely different organization with completely different FO personnel and still managed to win a ring. Throughout his entire Patriots career I said "well, all these Super Bowls need to have asterisks next to them and I don't think he deserves the HoF", but then he went ahead and won it again in Tampa and made me change my mind. Although... All the stuff with his TB12 company does seem awfully suspicious and like a way to get him money outside of the salary cap... And what a coincidence that he famously took mid-tier QB contracts his whole career too... If there was ever more investigation into that it's possible I would change my mind back.

    How many QB's have won Super Bowls on multiple teams? I mean actually win, not just guys on the bench like how Kenny Pickett has a ring lol.

    1. Earl Morral. Backup QB to Johnny Unitas for the Colts and Bob Griese for the Dolphins. It feels weird putting him here- he only played for the Colts because Unitas was injured, and he and Griese kind of went back-and-forth as Griese came back from injury rather than there being a clear starter. So he gets credit for the specific games but not quite for the entirety of Superbowl winning seasons imo

    2. Peyton Manning

    3. Tom Brady

    That's it. That's the list.

    If Belichik had gone on to another team to have success perhaps I would view him differently. I really don't think Deflategate was a huge deal, but Spygate absolutely was. The bigger issue with deflate gate imo was that it was more evidence of Belichik teams cheating. Two separate cheating scandals re-contextualizes his record-breaking success. Instead of wondering "how is Belichik so good at being a football coach?" Fans are left wondering "what else is Belichik doing to cheat that he hasn't gotten caught for?"

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (2 children)

    I only even reluctantly add Brady to the HoF, because he went to a completely different organization with completely different FO personnel and still managed to win a ring. Throughout his entire Patriots career I said “well, all these Super Bowls need to have asterisks next to them and I don’t think he deserves the HoF”, but then he went ahead and won it again in Tampa and made me change my mind.

     So did the Bucs title convince you that he wasn't cheating before? Because trust me, I'm not here trying to tell you Brady is a cheater, but this looks like the standards shift depending on the argument being made. If you think it negates the cheating allegations for Brady in NE, why do the same ones stick against Belichick? It's kinda weird how people can't decide whether Belichick needed Brady or if he needed cheating, because him not being able to win since Brady left would suggest the former, but if he relied on cheating, it should have no impact (as if he forgot how to cheat when Brady left). Make it make sense!

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    I don't think Brady was as heavily involved in the cheating. I weigh Spygate much more heavily than deflate gate, and that seemed much more like something driven by a front office than players. The players may have known, may have even been shown the tapes, but I highly doubt Brady was actually in the stands with a camera at any point, and I also doubt he had the authority to command people to do it on his behalf (maybe later in his career, but not then).

    Deflategate was cheating, but it seems such a smaller and more minor violation that just got blown up because it happened to be Brady and Belichik. If any other QB did that they might get a 1-gane suspension, max.

    If Brady was someone a mythical cheating mastermind, it would have been way harder to translate that to a new team. Different coaches, trainers, equipment personnel, security guards, janitors, etc.

    Belichik needed both Brady and cheating to win. Or at least someone better than Mac Jones. Bill Belichik as the GM was pretty terrible.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago*

    ‌ So you just decided arbitrarily that Brady's "cheating" doesn't matter and that he somehow couldn't easily deflate footballs in Tampa Bay, but that despite assuming that Brady might've benefited from having the defensive signals from other teams, this doesn't count as "heavily involved" in regards to what you deem the worse of the scandals…
     See, this is why I say this is all just a convenient excuse to stay in denial. People are just unilaterally cherry picking their facts to fit the narrative, arbitrarily choosing what counts as cheating or who holds the blame, getting themselves into a pretzel to rationalize selective outrage… It literally relies on whatever you assume happened, and you choosing the interpretation you want.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    I don’t know that much about NFL mores, I’m pretty sure a personal fine is as close as a coach can get to being judged guilty, does a suspension carry the same weight for a player? AFAIK Tom Brady was never fined

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    ‌ Suspension is worse than a fine; you can easily pay the latter and keep playing. A suspension doesn't just have financial penalties, but performance and contractual ones, as well as hindering your ability to compete.

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    • [–] 7 points 9 months ago

    This is hilarious. For schadenfreude reasons. He should've been unanimous.

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    [–] 25 points 9 months ago (10 children)

    Did everyone forgot about Spygate?? Does anyone care about Deflategate?

    Cheaters don’t get in their first year on the ballot.

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago* (4 children)

    Deflategate was bullshit, Spygate was legit, although the issue wasn't that they were taping, they were just taping from the wrong place. Plenty of teams have been caught doing that over the years and they didn't get the book thrown at them /shrug

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    This. This is the reason some of the voters didn't vote him in. As much as the Pats and their fans and the media have white-washed the cheatings some still remember what Bill did to get those wins.

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    • [–] 17 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    That’s the hobo leader of the cheater team, right?

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    • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    Let's put "legendary" in air quotes here.

    The guy sucked without his single lucky draft pick and that is abundantly clear by how he's done without said draft pick, and it pleases me that the NFL sees it.

    That and he got caught cheating multiple times. Dude's a loser.

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago* (2 children)

    Oh for god sakes… There is no way you win 8 superbowls and not be a great coach. Gimme a fucking break.

    There is a very long list of very talented Qbs whose careers were ended before they even had a chance.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    This just tells me how lacking you are in football history. There's a reason EVERYONE in the football world is disgusted by this, even people who played against him.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    I read a long time ago that Bill is a student of the game and early in his career he spoke of role of cheating and looking for gaps and loopholes in the game as part of the tradition of good coaches. Of course those articles are long gone now like the whitewashing Pats and their fans have taken to the internet.

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    • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    I don’t think the whole NFL world is in disbelief. The guy has plenty of question marks and jerk moves on his resume to make me not surprised. I think this year at college may have even contributed, because he acted like he was so great that he could walk in and the team would start winning just because he was now the coach. I’m not sure how much his coaching helped anything this year, which completely invalidated his attitude.

    Is he going to get in? Absolutely. First ballot? Nope. Should he be first ballet? Probably, but I don’t think it was the given that everyone thought it was going to be. (Obviously.)

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    [–] 2 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    The fact that the team immediately dropped off with Brady gone is very telling, and then the weird age-gap relationships after? Keep him out.

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago* (6 children)

    Brady wasn't everything for the patriots. He was a lot but you can look at seasons like 2008 when Brady tore his ACL and only played part of the first game. Yet the Patriots still went 11-5.

    If it had been Brady propping up the entire team I would have expected sub 8-8 record. That said, I couldn't care what happens to them

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  • [–] 11 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    He made Jimmy G look like a world beater for San Fran to give him 100 mil for his performance in 3 pro games.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Also enough to make the Raiders toss Derek Carr away and take on Jimmy G after his San Fran stint ended.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Brian Hoyer, Matt Cassel, Ryan Mallet, Jimmy G. There are so many examples of Pats backup QBs that went to start other places because the league was scrambling for Belichick's dregs. And that's just quarterbacks.

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    • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    This does surprise me.

    Reads like a fuck you to the prize you always wanted and will get in next year, but not the way you wanted.

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    [–] -1 points 9 months ago

    Robert Kraft, owner of NE Patriots, is going in this year. He doesn't want to share the stage with Belicheck. That's it, that's the reason, and no one in the "NFL world" who knows a damn thing is surprised.

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