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[–] 129 points 10 months ago (33 children)

Clocks were sundials.

If you can see the time, it's not night.

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  • [–] 47 points 10 months ago* (11 children)

    100% This.

    Also, being an evolution of sundials is the reason all analog clocks move their hands in the same direction.

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  • [–] 48 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    *Being evolution of sundials located on the northern hemisphere.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Sundials were almost certainly invented in the Northern Hemisphere and probably didn't break into the southern hemisphere until late antiquity at the earliest, so it kinda makes sense that it'd be centered around that concept. Also clocks were invented in the northern emisphere as well, wait are there southern hemisphere clocks that turn the opposite way like those maps where the southern hemisphere is on top?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Sundials were absolutely surely invented several times around the world, also in Australia etc. After all, a sundial is nothing but a stick in the ground.

    If mechanical clocks were invented before colonizers arrived, then the colonizers' clocks eventually replaced them. But, I understand they were invited only after all of the southern hemisphere had been colonized by less civilized nations, so they follow the colonizers' standards everywhere.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    So you're saying clockwise can also be called sundialwise?

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    I was answering about the Northern/Southern hemisphere logic of this... and realised that it depends if the sundial is vertical in a wall (facing South in the Northern hemisphere) or horizontal (facing the zenith/sky)... today you can easily find those wall sundials in many monumental buildings (at least these seem to me more common than the others) and the shadow is casted counterclockwise in the Northern hemisphere, so not sure if the clockwise sense was locked by sundials... also in the Southern hemisphere logic flips completely.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (10 children)

    I think their point was they picked 12 and not 24 or some other number to divide a circle by

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    That’s a Babylonian thing. They were obsessed with highly divisible numbers like, 12, 24 and 60. Basically the opposite of prime numbers, which are super annoying to divide. Babylonians wanted their numbers to as nice as possible when dividing. For example, 60 is particularly nice since it’s not absurdly large, but when dividing it, you have lots of options.

    All of this was long before the decimal point and calculators were invented, so divisibility was a big thing back then. Nowadays though, having weird fractions like that is more inconvenient and annoying than nice. Thanks to the Babylonians, we have super messy time units now.

    Thanks to the Romans, we also have super messy units for length, weight, volume and money. Yes, even money had convoluted fractions. That’s not a huge deal though, since basically nobody uses those any more.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago* (1 child)

    Thanks to the Romans, we also have super messy units for length

    But we can still blame the English for the furlong.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I wouldn't blame the Babylonians for us breaking the good standard and going 58, 59, 60, 61, 62 instead of the 58, 59, 100, 101, 102 that works just fine. They were first, we are the ones who added a new system aside the old one instead of replacing it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    If that was the case, we would now be talking about 48 h clocks vs. 24 h clocks.

    18:40 pm on the 24h clock would equal 36:40 on the 48 h clock. You would still not know whether it's night or day just looking at the time.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    I present to you, illuminated clocks!

    crowd gasps MY UNIVERSE IS COLLAPSING the crowd starts screaming and lighting things on fire

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Your sundial still isn't showing time.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Hey, where are my fellow ISO-8601 fans?

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    REPRESENT.

    Even in Canada I grew up with non-American time, thanks to German parents, and knew of AM/PM only via analog clocks and use outside of the home. I remember confusing the heck out of an elementary school teacher by giving an afternoon/evening time in proper units. She had to do the math (calculators still being hella rare in those days) to convert out of PM in order to see if I was correct or not.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    I took a nap one time on a spring afternoon and woke up at 6:00. Only I wasn't sure if it was afternoon or I slept all night until morning. Weird feeling.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I did this recently. I woke up at "sunrise", had a cup of coffee, and it started getting darker outside. I was very confused for a few minutes.

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  • [–] 50 points 10 months ago (37 children)

    AM/PM time is another thing that needs to sink with the USA, just like the Imperial system and Fahrenheit.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    EU fella here. I'm strongly pro-Metric and yet don't see a problem with 12-hour time. 24-hour is kind of clumsy to use in informal speech or chat/text, but I would use it in all other instances.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I use 24h all the time when speaking, never got strange gazes for doing so. And I never remember which one is midday and which is midnight on the 12-hour time.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Well... it depends on the language too - although I'm not a native English speaker, I would use 12-hour in spoken English too (like I would in my native Bulgarian) - often without even appending "AM" or "PM" because it would be obvious from the context.

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago (32 children)

    What's wrong with AM/PM lol. How many countries use 24h? Honesty, because I actua lly never thought about it before.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    It’s extremely common in Europe. I regularly get messages with “15h”, “22h”, etc, but spoken is a bit of a mixed bag, you can usually use 12 hour time and know if it’s AM/PM from context, but sometimes you need to be specific.

    Though the weirdest thing I’ve had to learn in Germany about time is, near where I live it’s common to say “one/three quarters [hour]”, instead of “quarter past/to [hour]”, so 10:15 is “one quarter 11”, and 10:45 is “three quarters 11”. It makes a little more sense when you know that “half 11” mean “half to 11”, not “half past” like is typical in English.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    You are trolling, right? Like, majority are using 24h.

    Disclaimer: generalizations from personal experience.

    Some nations use 12h with “at the morning” or “in the evening” in casual verbal conversations. In formal conversations it’s always 24h clock. Just yesterday I was booking an appointment at reception and they proposed me 14:45, so 24h clock, even though it is obvious that place is closed at 2:45 AM. But AFAIK some don’t use 12h even in casual speech, like Germans. Maybe Germans can confirm here.

    I think it’s language thing, I never heard of “AM/PM” in language other than English. If you want to tell time in 12h clock it’s usually period of the day, like “2, at night”, “6 in the morning”, “10 in the evening”, which is much more cumbersome than just 2, 6, 22. And imagine it in writing.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    I'd say Germany is about 50:50 verbally, but also depending on use. If using the 12h clock, one wouldn't say "2:17", rather round to "quarter past 2". The other half of people would use "14:17". But also if talking about timetables or other occurrences where the rounding would be detrimental, 24h will be u.sed.

    Writing, I would say is about 90% 24h clock, because it's just faster. Here, the divide would be between digital time ("14:17") and military time ("1417").

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah man I'm trolling. I was raised using 12h and was told 24h was "military time" so obviously I assumed everyone else in the world uses 24h

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    I would be interested in knowing whether this was said with sarcasm or without. Because both are plausible!

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I think most people in the US don't travel to other countries, so they almost never see a 24h clock. Whenever, we do see 24h time, most people call it "military time", probably cuz of movies or something.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    I know it's called that way, because I've seen the same movies. But was SolidShake meaning his comment sarcastically, meaning that "There was no way for me to know that most of the world uses the normal clock" or without sarcasm, meaning "I had always assumed that most of the world uses the normal clock."

    He could really mean either one. I could probably delve into his comment history and make some kind of a psychoanalysis based on those comments? But, meh.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (18 children)

    What is the logic for distinguishing 12AM vs 12PM? Also, you have double of every element and need 2 more sillables each to distinguish.

    It's confusing and inefficient.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Get rid of Daylight Savings Time first, then we'll talk about 24 hour time.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    I use 24 hour time all the time in my job, I also have to use the time zone. I'm good with converting right now.

    Daylight savings.... yeah burn it to the ground and a hex on those who implemented it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Wartime. Don't know why the hell they didn't remove it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    TIL, I always knew it had something to do with farming but a little digging revealed that it was to allow farmers to extend their work day and to conserve fuel during WW1.

    Well it's been over 100 years since that war ended, I think we can safely remove daylight savings time now. I doubt Franz Ferdinand is going to be on any tours and I think The Kaiser is no longer a threat.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (12 children)

    Everything after midday is PM. 12:00:00.00000001 is after midday. Therefore it can only be PM.

    That's the logic I use :)

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Historically, the style manual of the United States Government Printing Office used 12 a.m. for noon and 12 p.m. for midnight, though this was reversed in its 2008 editions.

    I also remember there were some countries that have 12 AM mean noon, but I may be mistaken as I can't find a source

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (10 children)

    You could just as well say the opposite.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (9 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (8 children)

    Everything before midday is AM, etc. etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (7 children)

    Yeah. Which is what I said. 11:59:59.9999999 is indeed AM, jos like you said. And then comes a tiny sliver of time that is precisely at the border, but a trillionth of a picosecond after that, you're in the PM world. After the infinitely short moment that is the actual precise noon.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Sorry, I answered without giving enough thought. You are right in your reasoning of course.

    Still, I find it confusing to have 2 completely different moments of the day represented by the same number.

    In phrases like "After 12 PM on Monday", "Before 12 AM" etc. I always need to think an extra second.

    Another example is setting automatic responder on the mail, where I need to rely on 11:59, because the date is selected before the time of day.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Have you noticed how common it is for buses and trains to leave at 23:59? The idea is to make it clear what evening the train is really running.

    In Finnish we call noon "12 o'clock" and midnight "0 o'clock". Makes things a lot more clear.
    And the first hour of a calendar day is indeed 0:00 until 0:59:59.99.. Since there are only 24 hours in a day, there cannot be a "24:30". (Except in internal timetables of bus companies, that typically run until 30 o'clock, as it still officially counts as the same working day)

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Since there are only 24 hours in a day, there cannot be a "24:30".

    Japan has something to say about that: 30-hour day time — clock doesn't wrap if it's a continuation of a previous day

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    So does Finland:

    (Except in internal timetables of bus companies, that typically run until 30 o’clock, as it still officially counts as the same working day)

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    So you call them 2 different things. Good. Now imagine doing the same for all the other numbers in between. That is what I get by "speaking 24 hours". And it takes less sillables.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    Although the 12 hours aren't divided in day/night are they?

    And depending on where/when you're at, it can easily be light out at seven and seven, even in the same day.

    What the 12 hour clock does well is to track when the sun goes up or down relative to the only convenient time marker: midday. It also does so in a pleasingly symmetrical way: it gets light and dark at about 8, rather than 4 hours before and 8 hours after midday.

    I'd argue if you want to track time, rather than record the ends of daylight, a linear scale for the whole day makes more sense. If it should be reset daily or not, be divisible by 24, 86400, 100, 1000000, a second or whatever is mostly a choice of convention. If you have constant access to a clock, Internet time seems convenient, for humans without clocks we use daylight and units like hours and 5-minute increments.

    For that the 24 hour clock seems simple and convenient, although it would be nice to be able to calibrate without a watch (is it two or three hours before midday? How many more hours until wake-up time?). 24 hour time isn't perfect, but it's much better adapted to modern life than the 12 hour clock.

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  • [–] 42 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    I still don't know why everyone doesn't just use the 24-hour clock. It's so much easier.

    It's like someone had doubts people could count much past 12, so just had them do that twice. Or maybe Big Clock didn't want to manufacture 24 hour faces and sold the lie.

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  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    It’s like someone had doubts people could count much past 12

    More like the people who invented a lot of shit used base 12.

    Things restarting at 12, is because the thing is so old, it predates base 10.

    Like, pick a language, count to thirteen:

    Ein, zwei, drei, fire, funf, sechs, seben, acht, neun, zein, elf, zwolf, dreizein...

    One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen...

    Notice how 11 and 12 aren't one-teen and two-teen?

    On each hand is 4 sets of 3 knuckles, touch your thumb to each knuckle and your finger counting on one hand higher than we can with two. Pretty sure there's some pretty neat math tricks with their method too, almost like built in abacus.

    But all this is off memory.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Ein, zwei, drei, fire, funf, sechs, seben, acht, neun, zein, elf, zwolf, dreizein…

    One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen…

    Yksi, kaksi, kolme, neljä, viisi, kuusi, seitsemän, kahdeksan, yhdeksän, kymmenen, yksitoista, kaksitoista, kolmetoista...

    (though, notice that our words for "eight" and "nine" are derived from those for "two" and "one". We used base 8 before migrating to Europe and applying the local standard. Then it was "two left until the new ten and "one left until the new ten"
    With base 8 you can use your fingers to count up to 24 because you can use your thumbs for marking the "tens". Or to 32, but that already takes a little bit of an effort because from my perspective your left thumb is on the right.)

    But yeah, base 10 is the worst. 12 can be divided by 3 without problems. And base 8 allows counting far higher with just fingers.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    one thing that I'm proud of my team at work for is just defaulting to using 24hr time when adding timestamps to filenames. I require datestamps, but there are no rules on timestamps if there are multiple files for that day. and a few of them just started appending the time in 24 hour format. I was so proud.

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