cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/41056130

At least 31 states and the District of Columbia restrict cell phones in schools

New York City teachers say the state’s recently implemented cell phone ban in schools has showed that numerous students no longer know how to tell time on an old-fashioned clock.

“That's a major skill that they're not used to at all,” Tiana Millen, an assistant principal at Cardozo High School in Queens, told Gothamist of what she’s noticed after the ban, which went into effect in September.

Students in the city’s school system are meant to learn basic time-telling skills in the first and second grade, according to officials, though it appears children have fallen out of practice doing so in an increasingly digital world.

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[–] 72 points 10 months ago (14 children)

Pains me that the article calls them "old" clocks and not "analog" clocks.

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  • [–] 26 points 10 months ago (4 children)
  • [+] -22 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Because they are fucking old. Old clocks. Useless clocks. Not a skill worth teaching, except as an anachronism when explaining why Big Ben and similar building clocks work the way they do.

    it appears children have fallen out of practice doing so in an increasingly digital world.

    Increasingly? Brother, we're already there. It's all digital. Have you seen the internet yet?

    Schools haven't adapted solely out of spite, to propagate this self-fulfilling cycle of teaching how they work, so that their own students can read school clocks. As soon as they leave the school zone, that knowledge is practically useless to them.

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    Not sure what kind of sequestered live you lead but schools are definitely not the only place you encounter them. Analog wall clocks and watch faces are still reasonably common.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Nope, not really. You occasionally find them in some old government building, but only because it's always existed that way, and they just don't want to bother replacing it with a modern digital clock.

    This line of thinking is the same as saying cursive writing is worth teaching.

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  • [–] 38 points 10 months ago (22 children)

    Maybe someone should teach them...

    One of the greatest dangers to a society is people assuming anything is innate or the next generation will magically know shit.

    Nobody taught these kids how to read a clock. So they don't know how to read a clock.

    This is a very minor thing, but it's an easier concept to grasp than the abstract concept of empathy we also stopped teaching kids.

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago* (7 children)

    I'm a millennial and I was taught how to read a clock in 2nd grade. Are they not teaching this basic skill anymore?

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I'm a millenial, too. Even I use my phone or computer to tell time more often than anything. Before smart phones we had some solid years relying on wall clocks and watches. It was a skill we kept using after we learned it, unlike a lot of kids who haven't needed to flex that muscle since they were taught.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah but smartwatches exist and digital watch faces look awkward on the ones with a round dial. Plus I have an analog clock on the wall for when the watch is charging and I don't feel like pulling out my phone... So it's still a useful skill to have.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    You didn't even have to read the article, just the excerpt from OP. "students are taught to read analog clocks in first and second grade in city public schools".

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Obviously they are not. You can say it's on the ciriculim, but they were obviously not taught

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Obviously, it was a skill learned in early grade school and subsequently forgotten through lack of practice. You know, as stated in the article and multiple comments here.

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  • [+] -12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (9 children)

    or maybe they should invest in digital clocks rather than continuing to use an archaic, obsolete technology.

    Yes. You read that right.

    Analog clocks are obsolete.

    Same with the fountain pen and dip pens and calligraphy (and the cursive writing styles that relied on them,) carrier pigeons and the telegraph. not to mention all sorts of other technologies that are of only passing interest.

    You probably don't know how to read a sundial, or to locate yourself on a map using a magnetic compass.

    While there's some esoteric value in such skills, the skills themselves are obsolete and useless to modern life. We're not preparing them for the past. we're preparing them for the future.

    Guaranteed the teachers aren't using the analog clocks if they don't have to either.

    (edit, I can't find the full article, everything points back to that atlantic article. The gyst that they cropped out so crudely is two fold: the point of cursive was to minimize blotting caused by lifting and setting the pen across each letter when using a pen with a nib. It required a relatively light hand when writing, so as to glide over the page and not dig itn. Ball point pens, on the other hand, transfer ink differently- you're rolling a ball over the surface- and they require significantly more pressure. the fluid motions of cursive writing cramp the hand sooner compared to print, if you're writing with a ball point.)

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    This is incorrect. I'm a teacher and CONSTANTLY use the analog clock for multiple reasons.

    1. It's the clock of record. Doesn't matter what YOUR particular clock says, the clock on the WALL is the time we all go on.
    2. Reaching into your pocket to pull out a phone and look, no matter how much you want to pretend it's trivial, still takes SIGNIFICANTLY more effort and time than glancing at the wall. Those seconds add up.
    3. Momentum. Are you PERSONALLY going to provide the billions of dollars in funding to replace every analog clock in a public space with digital ones?

    This is not like learning to write cursive - reading an analog clock is a trivial skill that should not take longer than a day for anyone to master.

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  • [+] -12 points 10 months ago*

    This is incorrect. I’m a teacher and CONSTANTLY use the analog clock for multiple reasons.

    It’s the clock of record. Doesn’t matter what YOUR particular clock says, the clock on the WALL is the time we all go on.
    

    Irrelevant. This function would be served regardless of what type of clock is on the wall. A digital wall clock would serve just as well, and likely be less expensive to maintain than the electromechanical clocks you presumably use. (something about obsolete technologies becoming increasingly more expensive to maintain.)

    Reaching into your pocket to pull out a phone and look, no matter how much you want to pretend it’s trivial, still takes SIGNIFICANTLY more effort and time than glancing at the wall. Those seconds add up.
    

    See the above reply.

    Momentum. Are you PERSONALLY going to provide the billions of dollars in funding to replace every analog clock in a public space with digital ones?
    

    an irrelevant red herring with a false dichotomy. Clocks in public places are mostly installed by the people who maintain those public places. We all pay taxes to keep those places up. I don't need to personally fund such a project and you know it.

    This is not like learning to write cursive - reading an analog clock is a trivial skill that should not take longer than a day for anyone to master.

    It may be trivial, and there may be some benefit besides learning to read said clock. But like cursive, it's an irrelevant skill that generally won't be used outside of class. That's how it's like cursive. Or, if you prefer, using a slide rule. as a teacher, I am, however, sure you understand that you only have so many hours of instruction available. A day spent on this, is a day not spent on something else. You might have arguments for why this is more important than that something else, but its still an obsolete technology that, like the slide rule and fountain pens, is going away. Nostalgia is not a good enough reason to keep it around.

    btw, my middle school had all digital wall clocks back in the mid 90's, and probably had them for quite some time before i was there.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    non-cursive is infuriatingly slow to write.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    I have no idea people hate on cursive (beyond the normal anti-intellectual reasons of hating the idea of teaching people things that aren't immediately applicable to industry).

    Cursive didn't come out of nowhere, it fills a legitimate need, and it's a skill that expresses your individual creative self in an activity you might do everyday (maybe more!) It does wonders for your self-confidence and happiness in life to write on paper well. Paper and pen has been humanity's companion for centuries if not millennia, and one doesn't do themselves any favors by intentionally shunning their own handwriting ability. And you dont have to pick between using a keyboard and learning cursive: just do both.

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  • [+] -3 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago

    Says the guy who apparently can only sting together an insult.

    Stuff changes. Each generation does things differently. Stone Age people probably said the same thing when they stopped teaching their children to flintknap after everyone started using bronze tools.

    We abandon old technology when it becomes obsolete, and eventually the skills associated with them. And that’s normal.

    We don’t have enough hours in a lifetime to learn all the stuff we’ve abandoned, and analog clock faces are going that way. It’s okay. This is normal.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    Maybe it wasn't such a major skill after all 😄

    Also, I'm old and remember waking up after partying hard and looking at an analog clock, not knowing whether it's AM or PM. Those clocks suck. 24h or nothing. Also radio-controlled clocks are a blessing ngl.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    Looking at the sky will often help with distinguishing AM vs PM

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    5 in my winter is about the same.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, if the sky isn't totally overcast, then you see where the sun is

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    below the horizon in both cases

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah they probably can't read cursive either.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago

    I learned to read an analog clock in elementary school. If schools aren't teaching it anymore idk why they're shocked that kids don't know how.

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  • [–] 14 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    which new york teacher was stunned because i have questions

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    They seem bad at computers a lot of the time too. I know right wingers like to make public schools lives hell by slashing budgets constantly but like damn.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    "Old clocks"

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I remember when I was in 5th grade, back in the early '80s, a kid didn't know how to tell time on a clock. The adults then blamed the popularity of digital wristwatches. On one hand it doesn't really matter, on the other it's a great introduction to visualizing alternate numbering systems.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    I was in 5th grade back in 00's and if you don"t knoe how to tell time on a clock, you get made fun of. It offers a different, a more intuitive, perception of progressing time. It's more like a progress bar than just counting numbers

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    This is not surprising at all. Even when taking about time relative to the analog clock, it gets difficult, a lady asked me for the time at Walmart, and she could not understand "half past six". When I clarified that's 6:30, she finally got it.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I taught my gen-z kid to read an analog clock because I knew no one else would. I know he learned it.

    He's 27 now, and living back at home. Recently, we were in the kitchen and the cat was asking to be fed. He said, "I don't think it's time yet..." and then went to his room to check the time on his phone. The same analog clock he learned to read is on the wall in the kitchen, where it's been his entire life. Apparently, he didn't practice at all after I taught him and tested him on it, and now can't read it? I dunno, I didn't ask, I didn't want to make a whole thing out of it.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Well, I can convert it, but it takes time. I’ve been told that people who think in analog time rather view it as a kind of progress bar and only convert it to the exact minute number when they are asked for the time by somebody else.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago
    [–] 12 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Bet they can't dial a rotary phone or hitch a horse to a wagon either.

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    [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    i went back to school last year and only a couple of my classmates under 30 could read clocks. kind of amazing.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (13 children)

    How is that even possible? The only clocks on display in my house are analog. Do people not have wall clocks? Do kids grow up never knowing what time it is? That's a standard household furnishing.

    Then again, it does say some students, so I probably should assume it's a minority who never asked their parents what the fuck that thing on the wall was.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    Microwave, stove, tv, computers... Digital by default or digital only. Who hangs a wall clock anymore?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

    Most people in my country, but I guess not USA, huh? I thought analog watches are almost always more fashionable than digital, too, so I'm really surprised it seems to be not used enough that a couple of dudes here dedicated paragraphs to oppose its use.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    I'm not in the USA. I do have an analog clock and watch though but they just sit in the closet.

    Here's the problem, I don't have a lot of wall space and I already have clocks everywhere else. If the purpose is to know the time, then the purpose has been delivered like 5 times over. I don't need to waste wall space on an analog clock.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    the only clocks I have on display in my house are analog

    That's a choice. You don't have to have any analog clocks. I don't currently have any. I dislike decorational clocks and strictly have digital clocks as informational devices where I want the time at a glance. Not to mention, I have 4 appliances in the kitchen with digital clocks (oven, microwave, drip coffee, keurig). Meanwhile, I absolutely hate audible ticking, so the only analogs I've bought are watches.

    Also, as a former child, I can tell you children do not know what time it is. I also had digital clocks available the whole time, ranging from my dad's "James Bond" Casio, to the VCR flashing 12:00 all the time. Mostly, the pale teal VFD type.

    It doesn't make sense to think of reading an analog clock as a necessary skill. It's like driving a manual car. Can you? I do it daily. I can count on one hand the number of times being able to drive stick saved me in an emergency situation by being the only transmission available (it's a closed fist). All the same, I have never been in an emergency situation that was dependent on my ability to read an analog clock

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Tick Tock. Tick Tock.

    That shit gets it's battery removed or taken off the wall and shoved in the bathroom whenever I end up at a hotel/motel with one.

    Drives me insane.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I don't mind ticking (up to a certain point), but my Dad used to have in his garage an analog clock that not only ticked but also had extremely audible whirring sounds. They were associated (I assume) with the gearing. Again, it never really bothered me - I didn't spend much time in the garage and I'm pretty sure that clock had been around longer than I had (which is probably why it was so noisy). I was accustomed to it.

    However, I remember the day my dad got hearing aids. One of the first things he observed was how noisy the clock was, asking if it had always been that way.

    My dad spent a lot of time in his garage. Pretty sure that clock didn't last out the week.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Hearing aids are such a QoL improvement once people admit they need them. There's so much noise in the world that gets lost with age/damage. My dad got less irritable because he could actually understand normal talking levels. He definitely noticed some "new" noises in his house like yours did.

    But now I have a new issue. I can hear him breathing and chewing through his own hearing aids since they're cranked to 11. Whatever, I'll take it.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    My dad also got less irritable after. Before he got them, he got in a few (fairly slight) arguments with my mom due to him perceiving her as saying nonsense things - because he couldn't hear the context. Unfortunately, my mom died before he got the hearing aids, but he definitely always loved her and the arguments stayed minor and surrounded by good connections. He fairly doted on her most of the time.

    He lived for a long time after getting them and it was good to see, as you said, his QoL improvements.

    I never had the issue you're describing, but I think that's in part because he could largely function with his limited hearing and mostly kept the aids off or on low settings. I'm glad you're able to deal with the inconvenience!

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    That's a choice to be stupid. When I was a child I was frustrated as hell I couldn't read the signs Bugs Bunny held up, so I was chomping at the bit to learn. And these kids see "circle clocks" and just figure, "Meh. Guess it will always be a mystery."

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    How is that surprising ? Why would kid learn a useless skill ? Yes it's useless if you always have a digital clock on you and only read time that way. Should they learn to read cuneiform too? Now that the phone ban is in place, they will learn to read analog clock since it's useful again.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Cuneiform is an ancient writing system that died 1900 years ago. An analog clock (many of which are still around today) has hands that point to the numbers on the circumference. I don't think the two can be compared.

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago

    You voted for this, New York! reeeEEE

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