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[–] 134 points 11 months ago* (18 children)

there’s a lot more to what it means to be perceived as gay in this society than just that person, personally hating gay people.
i had someone say that to me and i’m just extremely self conscious so i was just trying to figure out why….
was it my tone of voice? mannerisms?
all these penises in my mouth?
Is that why women are seldom romantically interested in me? Do they all think i’m gay? is that the key to my loneliness? (probably just the ugly part).
if you tell someone, “oh i figured you like country music” and they don’t, they’re going to wonder why.
and i don’t know if they stopped, but kids used to be pretty mean calling people gay… it can be kind of a “touching on childhood trauma” thing.

my advice: don’t “trick” people with clever “tests” and try to be genuine with your friends. If you’re gay and you have straight friends, those friends probably aren’t the problem even if they have a problem with being misidentified as gay.

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  • [–] 50 points 11 months ago

    my advice: don’t “trick” people with clever “tests” and try to be genuine with your friends.

    That's was my reaction to reading this, it's like shittestting in a relationship. YOU are the asshole if you do that. You're also an asshole if you think your straight friends would react like that. You're also terrible at picking your friends.

    This post is basically saying "your straight friends aren't actually your friends, this is how you can prove it"

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago*

    Agree. Let's approach this from the rational angle. "If they don't react how I think they should react, then they must be..." But that's clearly not a rational process. Its not even a decent heuristic.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I feel the need to emphasize that there is no difference between a straight person and a gay person outside of where they fall on the kinsey scale, just as there's no difference between a trans person and a cis person, outside of the difference between their physical traits and preferred gender.

    People are made up of tens of billions of neurons firing in a complicated puzzle, every one of us is unique and different. We should use caution and discretion in defining and perceiving the labels we use to categorize people using any trait that is not directly influenced by that trait.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    i don’t believe in labeling people as such either, but for the sake of being able to communicate i’ve used the vernacular terms aforementioned, here within.
    Also the kinsey scale is yet another human attempt to collapse the broad, multidimensional aspects of sexuality into a one dimensional “scale”. Like the “political spectrum” plane, it’s overly reductive and attempts to understand and explain the elephant by feeling its tail.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    I think that's more of a tell on your own insecurities if the notion makes you uncomfortable. You can't tell if someone is gay, even if there are some trends/social queues.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    you should look up “gaydar”

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago* (9 children)

    I feel that was covered by saying "trends/social queues"

    "Gaydar" is just making a guess based on social queues. Maybe it's an educated guess but it is a guess.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (6 children)

    no, that’s how someone straight would guess….
    gaydar is more of an intuition

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Intuition - "quick and ready insight; the power of knowing things without conscious reasoning."

    Iunno, I think that's covered by "social cueues and tendencies". Your intuition is still fueled by the things you perceive and isn't magic, or necessarily accurate.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 49 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Exposing people's insecurities is not a test of allyship.

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  • [–] 37 points 11 months ago

    I feel like this is more of a test for confidence than for supportiveness.

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  • [–] 34 points 11 months ago

    I'd say "because I'm stylish and I work out?" (Context: I'm fat and wear jeans and graphic tees year round)

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  • [–] 28 points 11 months ago*

    I mean guys are socially conditioned to feel inferior and less worthwhile as men for that kind of thing, I try not to hold it against folks as long as they're kind and choose to act in support

    It takes some people a looong time to unlearn that internalized rubric. Sometimes it even takes gay guys a long time to unlearn it

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  • [–] 25 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah being an "ally" isn't enough. People need to be subjected a purity tests too because that's been a super successful strategy so far!

    Seriously, if someone isn't super comfortable with gay people but they overcome those feelings and support gay rights, just take the win.

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  • [–] 23 points 11 months ago

    My brothers friend came out to his group, and apparently one of them just went "gayyyyy" and they had a laugh and that was that.

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  • [–] 48 points 11 months ago (18 children)

    I don't think that would be my reaction as a straight man, but I could see why some people could be upset by others thinking that they were gay. It means you are not projecting the kind of appearance and energy you are trying to. It's like telling a trans man "oh when we first met I thought you were a woman." Maybe they can laugh that off but it probably stings still. It doesn't mean they think being a woman is inferior to being a man.

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  • [–] 23 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah, this kinda feels similar to the whole "you can't be racist against white people/sexist against men" that tries to turn it into a cycle of revenge rather than bring anyone together.

    It seems just like false flag division tactics. On the surface it seems like a good point, but you peel it back a bit and see it's more likely to just drive away people who might otherwise be on your side for not being "supportive enough".

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    If you're not comfortable being perceived as lgbt+, are you an ally?

    I think that's what this post is asking.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    It's not a part of my identity, so no, I'm not. I just think that it should be irrelevant to whether or not someone should be allowed to exist or be respected as an equal. Does that make me an enemy?

    I'd also feel weird if someone randomly said I seemed like an artist. Even though I've made an art or two over the years, it's not a label I consider a part of my identity. Hell, even labels I do consider part of my identity can feel weird if someone randomly said I seemed like that out of a context where I'm demonstrating that. It's nothing against anyone who identifies as any of those labels, but more of a general discomfort from being reminded that no one really knows me but will try to quantify and qualify who I am anyways.

    It's like saying "if you don't want to be one of us, you must hate us".

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    What does the implied perception have to do with your own wants?

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    Not entirely sure what you're asking, like if others' perception of me threatens my identity or something? It's not that big of a deal. Discomfort, not distress or outrage.

    To be clear, the issue I have is using this as a shit test, not that people might label me wrong. It's going to happen, it's just not comfortable. But treating reacting with discomfort as if it implies hatred is just going to start a conflict where there wasn't one and increase division in a time when we really don't need more things dividing us.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago

    I fall in to the +, but not gay. I spent my teen years with people assuming I was gay because I didn't project masculinity, nor fawn over/chase women. It was frustrating to be misidentified. I'm sure people who don't fit into LGBT+ are similarly annoyed at being misidentified.

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    There's more to it than that, being gay 30 years ago was enough to ruin your career - even if there wasn't any proof. This is where the term "metrosexual" came from in the 2000s. Being gay was so bad that men came up with a word that meant "I'm straight but I like to shower and dress nicely."

    So if you're a Millennial or older, odds are that you still carry the scars from that stigma to some extent, even if you're an ally. When I was a kid, calling something gay was the worst you could get without swearing.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (10 children)

    There's no difference between a gay man and a straight man, outside of specifically who they're trying to fuck. Suggesting someone might be one or the other isn't harmful, since there's no real way to tell without asking.

    Telling a man they didn't pass is rude af.

    I don't see how those can be equivocated. Sexual preference and gender identity are different things defined, characterized, and experienced in wildly different ways.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

    You literally mention the difference but then want to ignore the implications of that difference.

    Gay men and Straight men generally have differences on average in what they do to attract perceived partners past the baselines of having a pulse and being a functional human being.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Yes, but that's all social and varies person to person, region to region, etc. Even if there are typical differences, that's not a rule. Which is the point.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    So in one sentence you say there is no way to tell, in the next you say there are differences, then back to "it's hard to define, therefore there are no differences at all".

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Even if there are typical differences, that’s not a rule. Which is the point.

    Something not being a rule doesnt make it locally insignificant. People in these various regions and cultures all have general ideas of how they would like to outwardly present themselves.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I get what you mean, and certainly you never know for sure if someone is straight or gay when you first get to know them... but are you saying you never make assumptions based on how someone dresses, talks, carries themselves, and interacts with the men and women around them?

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  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    A gay dude hit on me and I was super flattered. I told him that he looked good too without saying "No Homo"

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    If a gay friend told me that, I would have said “you have shit taste in men”

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    "Yeah, lots of people do. My parents did, too."

    I actually get this fairly frequently. I don't read as terribly cis, but I am.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago

    I used to get it a lot when I was young because I didn't have a girlfriend. I was always like "....Yeah it's not because I'm 5'3, shy as fuck, got the shit bullied out of me at school for 6 years straight, and don't go to social activities, I'm just gay..." Assholes.

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  • [–] 84 points 11 months ago (16 children)

    Why is this okay because they are straight? Imagine saying you thought your Trans friend was a man, when they are trying to present as a woman.

    These kind of tests are so toxic, and serve nothing but to spark an argument and hurt feelings.

    You are part of the problem.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    I don't see how those two are related at all and honestly treating them as interchangeable is... cringe.

    There is no harm in suggesting you thought someone was gay or straight, especially because sexuality has nothing to do with outward appearance and can be kinda nebulous to infer at all. If you're not comfortable with the idea of being lgbt+, how are you an ally? Nothing differentiates a gay man from a straight one, outside of attraction to other men.

    Whereas so much of trans struggles and validity relate to how they're/we're perceived. Do I pass enough to shit in the restroom that conforms to my identity?

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    So you think there isn't a lot of extremely toxic male culture that will make men feel invalid for not being perceived as straight? Because that shits everywhere. It's perfectly normal to struggle with that, feeling insecure about your self image has nothing to do with your support of others.

    And insecurities can come from very personal things and no one should be judged for them. Lying about how you perceived someone as a "test" is toxic as fuck.

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  • [+] 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    I disagree about it not being remotely comparable. There's little doubt that on average it's gonna be far worse to misgender a transperson in that way (though "i thought you were x when i first met you" isn't really misgendering either since it's explicitly saying they're not that, but w/e we all know what we're talking about here) since there's a very high chance they have some degree of trauma associated with it.

    But I think in individual cases the "i thought you were gay" can be just as bad, so I do think it's entirely comparable. I think it's important to also think about the worst effect it could have, and it's such an unnecessary action that both cases are just toxic and never a good thing, so I don't think there's a need to rank one as worse than the other. (And ofc both can also be fine if it's clear everyones comfortable with it, and that's more likely in the gay case, but hopefully that's obvious).

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  • [+] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Did you skip over the part of it being completely unnecessary? Insults are a part of human communication, you can't just erase them, so of course it makes sense to classify some as worse than others. It's a fundamental part of insults even.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    As someone agender this entire thread is wild to me. I accept any gender, any pronouns, and do not care how people percieve me. None of this seems offensive to me, whether people thought i was trans or gay or whatever. Pretty sure the offense is mostly just whether offense was intended.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago

    Pretty sure the offense is mostly just whether offense was intended.

    I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but since I read this sentence I understand why I dislike this suggestion. Saying something to your friend to see if they'll be uncomfortable is intending offense, imo. You should be kind to your friends and not give them shit tests, or else just don't be friends with them anymore. It honestly feels like OOP is suggesting your straight friend isn't really your friend, but a wolf in sheep's clothing.

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  • [+] -15 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Shit, you're right. Without allies like you, how would we learn and grow? Thank you for your insights.

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    [+] 37 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)
  • [+] -22 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)
  • [+] 22 points 11 months ago* (5 children)
  • [+] -10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    While I get what you're saying, you would still be the person who is choosing to take offense in this situation, and getting yourself worked up. This would be more like if someone said you look like you're from Boston, weird because there's not a true 'look', but not a big deal at all.

    Equating it to someone calling you a dog is the energy you're putting on it yourself. It's generally considered dehumanizing to equate gay people to dogs, something to consider

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  • [+] 10 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [+] -14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child)
  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago

    You are the one who needs to step back and actually think about the rhetoric you are spewing before just pushing it out there. From your own standards that you defined in your conversation here, you are saying that when a Trans person gets misgendered, THEY are CHOOSING to get worked up if they get upset and correct someone. Your own rhetoric is transphpbic. People have a RIGHT to express and maintain their own identity. You need to understand that.

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    [–] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    A lot of people thought I was gay my answer was always "Yeah, I get that a lot, not sure why though."

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago

    When people tell me "I thought you were gay," or whatever, I reply, "I'm not, but thank you for noticing me."

    My gay friends have told me that I'm one of the least gay people they've ever seen. I don't totally know what that means, but it weirdly hurts.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I'd be interested to know why they thought that too. Not sure why that's a bad thing

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  • [+] 8 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    I was 5'5", shy, nerdy, never had a girlfriend, and got asked if I was gay a lot. Then for unrelated reasons, I as an adult actually did transition to female and even married a guy. The same types that bullied me for being effeminate as a kid now tell me I'll never be a real woman.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    I used to work at a tech repair shop right next to a big lbgtq hub in my city and there'd be gays guys in there a couple times a day who thought I was gay. Never once did I find it offensive, everyone in there always had the best outfits that look like they had a professional stylist, the most clear skin I've ever seen and the confidence of an alligator in a chicken coop. I know that's kind of a stereotype but that's exactly what it was and I would love getting lumped in with the group.

    The tips there we're a lot better than the other spots in the city too, no fights, the store only got robbed once in the 3 years I worked there and the customers weren't dickheads who'd walk in, throw their broken phone on the counter (breaking it more) and say "fix this" without saying another word. It really was a decent spot to work.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    I used to get accusations of being gay a lot because I had a lot of friends that happened to be women and I didn't constantly sexually harass them or whatever.

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  • [–] 18 points 11 months ago*

    Chat, is it healthy to guilt and purity test your striaght friends because they're straight?

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I'm a straight guy. I don't wish I was gay, but being bi would be pretty cool. Twice the options.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Lmao. Would love to hear this from a gay man. Would just simply say, I don't have the fashion drive to be a gay man.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    I used to get clocked as gay all the time back when I could afford to dress myself. This was before I knew. I still am queer, but now I just live in crisis levels of poverty, can't afford to dress- my life is in shambles, and I never get called out on it anymore. -sigh-

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I physically can not be gay. I instinctively chew anything that is in my mouth for more than ten seconds.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    This was my life in the early 90’s the gay clubs had better music and women felt safer there. Many girlfriends started off by them saying “too bad your gay other wise we would be fucking.”

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    did women read in cosmo that inferring a guy is gay makes a good pickup line? or do I just look gay? Shit is confusing AF, but I suspect the former.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    If lots of women are asking if you're gay, it means you appear gay. Probably less so in your literal appearance (if you aren't aware of it) and more in your patterns of speach and behavior.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Oh my god it's the funniest thing. I know this far-right guy, super homophobic and transphobic, who talks and gestures like the campiest gay man you've ever seen. I don't mean campy like IRL campy. I mean literally cartoon campy. I'm talking full-blown Family Guy gay stereotype campy.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago

    My queer kids seem to think I am lesbian. The girlfriends "are you sure your mom isn't lesbian?" I literally have birthed 4 of kids , half of that set queer, and myself had only 2 long term relationships, both with men. I'm only into men, as far as I can tell. Am not offended in the least, as I get older I do wish it was so, women hold up better; and they obviously mean it as a compliment, it's just funny.

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