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[–] 181 points 1 year ago (39 children)

Eh. This depends on the job being done. In my field of work the only thing that matters is that you get the job done. What office hours you keep are not very important. On the other hand, my friend works shift work where he has to replace someone directing a process (think air traffic control). Being 10 minutes late is a dick move because you are forcing the person you are replacing to stay longer at the end of a shift.

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  • [–] 71 points 1 year ago (36 children)

    Then shifts should have an overlap.

    I know they don't and won't, but there's no good reason not to do it, except that the company would make a bit less money.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    Depends on how things are run. My wife works at the hospital and works 12 hour shifts, rotating days and nights. You’re expected to show up 15 mins early so the previous shift can hand off their patients to you.

    I’m not sure how you’d do 12 hour shifts with overlap unless the overlap was considerable or shift times were all over the place. The hospital here gets a certain budget and it makes sense to have it running as optimal and efficient as possible. You also get paid from punch in to punch out so coming in early gets you paid more. Realistically her shifts are 12 hours 15 mins.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    But then your wife should be scheduled and paid for 12.25 hour shifts.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    She gets paid for it, it’s just not on the schedule. There’s no unpaid labour at her work.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    By listing a schedule starting at one time, but expecting the actual start to be earlier they're communicating an inaccurate schedule.

    Could you imagine prescribing one dose but expecting another? Billing one amount but expecting a premium on top of that?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    15 mins early is standard here. Basically everyone expects 15 mins early to everything (work, appointments, etc). Her work is more direct about it since it’s a core part of their work, but it’s nothing unusual where we live.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yeah I dont think 12 hours is feasible, anyway.

    By hour 10, are people really working with the same level of care as when they started?

    In healthcare that's a much bigger concern than some middle-manager in a corporate office.

    Three 8:15 hour shifts, instead of two 12:15 hour shifts. Seems much more reasonable, adds 15 minutes total to work time.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    In theory, more medical errors happen from bad transfer of care than from fatigued caregivers, so that's why they go for longer, fewer shifts.

    Or so they say. I'm not sure I believe it.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I asked my wife about this, she said in her experience that’s true. I actually just asked her why they work 12 instead of 8 and that’s the answer she gave too.

    I also mentioned it in another comment but most of her coworkers prefer the 12 hour shifts as they get a lot more days off. She said it’s busy enough that 12 in the hospital feels like 8 elsewhere so it doesn’t feel like she’s working super long shifts.

    Doctors often have longer shifts too. My cousin is an anesthesiologist and works 24 hour shifts. He likes it for all the same reasons.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Are shifts typically 12 hours due to a staffing shortages or is it for better patient care? I’m all in favor of hospitals being efficient and optimal, but if more funding is required so that the hospitals are staffed properly then I don’t see why that’s not something being funded by the government.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    It's generally perceived to be better for patient care.

    https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/indhealth/48/3/48_3_357/_article/-char/ja/

    There are a lot of studies looking into it, though, and it seems like it's pretty context dependent.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    That makes sense, if you’re working 12 hour shifts then at least your weeks are more predictable and you can have more baked in recovery days between shifts.

    Contrasted with rotating 8 hour shifts where some of your days can be during the daylight and other shifts throughout the night, with less recovery time in between to prepare for the sweeping changes.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I’d be all for more funding to the hospitals too. Unfortunately I don’t make those decisions. Our hospitals are already funded by the government but it would be nice if they’d give them more money for staff and equipment etc. A lot of floors are chronically low on supplies. At least the staff gets paid really well, which is a bonus. My wife makes about 2.5x what she’d make in a retirement home or similar.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Sounds like they should work towards 3 shorter shifts and offer enough time for a proper patient handover rather than abusing staff for over half a day.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    There are 8 hour lines too but no one wants them. 12 hour days means more days off. Most people either work 2 days, 2 nights, 5 days off, or 5 weeks of lots of shifts days and nights and then one full week off.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    So they should offer 8 hours and comparable days off (or even better)

    None of this 12 hour bullishit should be justifiable.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Then they’d need to raise her wage too which they won’t do. She’s already well paid for her position. The more she works, the more she makes. If they raised her pay and lowered her hours so she’d get the same paycheques that would be great, but definitely wouldn’t happen. She also enjoys working. Saving people’s lives is a very fulfilling job.

    12 hours aren’t bad. If I could choose 12 hours 3 days per week plus a 4 hour day instead of five 8 hour shifts I’d take that easily. Or four 10 hour days. When you’re already working 8 hours, an extra 2-4 hours isn’t bad. I used to work 12-15 hour days when they’d let me, but then they started refusing overtime so I can’t do that anymore.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, they always sell the 12 hour shifts with the tag line, "You'll only be working 14/15 days a month!" It's true, and I love my 5 days off in a row, but there is a huuuuge difference in an 8 hour day and a 12 hour day when you're juggling the other necessities in your life, like kids, appointments, and emergencies.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I believe there's studies showing that fewer handoffs lead to better patient outcomes.

    I know people who prefer 12 hours shifts. My partner is scheduled for 7-7:30 shifts. Including a half hour lunch break, that means there's a 30 minute handover window while still working 12 hours... in the end they get paid for when they are clocked in/out and not when they are scheduled.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    There are some studies that show that having shifts shorter than 12h actually do more harm to patients than benefit since that means more turnover in each case and more disconnect between patient and medical professionals.

    I've heard way crazier shifts, things like 36h shifts where I live years ago.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    How much of a difference could there possibly be, regarding alleged patient harm, between 12hr and 10hr shifts?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    You wouldn't do 10h shifts, you would do 8h shifts or you would have daily drift in shifts and that's horrible for workers.

    As other people have written in this post, workers prefer 12 to 8 since there are less error and they get more vacation days.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    You wouldn't do 10h shifts

    Why? I'm literally asking why 10hr isn't even a possibility, it's all just 8 or 12 in here. Why wouldn't I do 10hr shifts?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    because it doesn't add up to 24h. You propose two 10h shifts and one 4h shift? That sounds chaotic.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    double the nurses and doctors for 1h? Sounds like chaos idk.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah you're right, just make everyone work 12 hr and then have to stick around longer (possibly without being paid for it) if anyone is ever even just a couple of minutes late. Makes so much more sense.

    Or, I don't know, overlap them by 15 min? Who said it had to be an hour?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    quoting the orignal msg:

    You also get paid from punch in to punch out so coming in early gets you paid more

    Did you selectively ignore the part where they said that they punch in and punch out and are paid those 15 mins????

    Who said it had to be an hour?

    10h paid shifts. to overlap them consistently you do 8h turns with 1h overlap on each. it's the most logical way to overlap 10h shifts in my eyes idk...

    In any case, if they are paid those 15 mins and workers aren't pissed with the 12h15m shifts, why do you care so much?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You’re expected to show up 15 mins early

    "Expectation" means it's not showing up 15 minutes early for a 12 hour shift, it's 12 hour and 15 minutes shift.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    To overlap the next shift would have to come in early or the first would stay late.

    So either you make it even harder to come in on time or you permanently institute the issue of running late.

    Not to mention that would absolutely just become another dumbass all Hands-On meeting to waste everyone's time with.

    Nah people should just be there when they agreed to, being flaky is not and should not be everyone else's problem.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    That doesn't make any sense. If you're supposed to be there at 5:00, the shift should change so you're supposed be there at 4:50, so that you'll be there at 5:00 when you're ten minutes late?

    And what am I supposed to do if you do get there at 4:50? Clock out early? Feel you awkwardly hovering behind me?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I already pay for commute.
    If the company isn't paying me for extra 10 minutes, they're not getting free 10 minutes.

    It shouldn't be your problem if the next shift doesn't show up on time.
    When I used to work shifts you bet the employer paid for every extra minute I had to wait for the next guy - it's the law.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago*

    It's interesting to bring up air traffic controllers because they (in most countries) have strictly regulated work hours. The research into fatigue and safety problems is pretty extensive, and the last person you want working overtime because someone got sick is the controller telling a dozen or more planes where to fly at once.

    While not all jobs have the same stakes, that goes to show how it's an employer's responsibility to account for reality.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    Keep pretending to pay a fair wage and I'll pretend to give a shit about being on time.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    I don't think they'll be pretending to pay for long if you keep being late lol

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Yeah... better to get there on time and then slack off at work.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Depends on your position and workplace: Some really don't care when you come in as long as you're getting shit done, others are the opposite. I've worked both and prefer working at places that don't care as long as things run smoothly.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    I mean yeah? I don't know how employment contracts work elsewhere but here it says when you should be at work and of course by (repeatedly) breaking your contract you'll get sacked. Fair enough imo

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Does that mean they are contracted for certain work but not certain hours or certain time of day?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    It's not necessarily contract work, but yeah I guess you could describe it that way.

    You get hired for $X/year, and that's what you make. Your paycheck, if weekly for example, will always be $X/52 regardless of how many or how few hours you worked.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Why not just put in zero hours?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    If you literally did nothing, you might get fired or at least your contract would not be renewed depending on who you are/where you are. Some people actually do that though, usually some nepobaby, and manage to avoid getting fired because they have some connection to higher ups.

    I could probably get away with doing little to nothing for a good while because I've built up a lot of good will and favors at my job, but eventually I'd probably get canned. I'd also get pretty bored with that pretty quickly, I actually do like my job, I just don't usually go all out when I'm there.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    Salary means you get paid a certain amount of money every year but everything else is defined by your contract: You might not have to come in at all if your contract doesn't stipulate that, you could even literally be paid to do nothing or you could be on call 24/7 or anything in between.

    This is not the same thing as contractors, who are not employed by the company and bill for their work at an hourly rate. Salary is more stable income usually with decent to good benefits in the US and can work any number of hours (or lack thereof). Contractors can make more per hour, but still have to cover their own medical, dental, retirement, etc.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    You'd be super wrong there, at least in my case: I'm late all the time, not only do I still have my job, I get great reviews and token raises every time I'm up for review. If I left, they'd be in trouble, they definitely won't fire me. I don't bust my ass and they understand I won't be taking calls outside of designated hours, doing anything heroic, etc. but I am still very valuable to my employer.

    I joked about having a job interview once during a meeting with leadership and it was one of the most awkward silences I'd ever heard until I told them I was just kidding: They thought I was serious and their terror was palpable. My manager once told me I'd have to commit multiple crimes to get fired when I made a joke about getting fired because there was an end of day meeting on a Friday.

    I stay because it's a chill job and I like most of the people I work with even though the pay isn't amazing, but I could probably go somewhere else and make at least 30-50% more, though at the possible cost of more stress and less job security. My commute is pretty great too, 2 miles away and sometimes I even walk to work.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's not exactly a secret, but sure I guess? I've said hi to my boss, their boss, the CIO's secretary, the CIO, etc. when coming in late plenty of times.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Seems your boss is pretty lenient about it

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago*

    My boss, my boss's boss, etc. - you work at the right place and are valuable enough, they 100% don't care if you're a little late, even if it's every day! They let me leave early if I want too and if my lunch break runs a little long, that's fine. Not every place is a micromanaged shithole.

    On the other hand, if something runs late and I have to stay and address it, I don't complain so I guess it's a two way street. I've even come in early before when necessary (though it's rare).

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  • Stay late 10 minutes: that's as good as leaving on time. I can't be expected to pay you more.

    Arrive 10 minutes late: how could you? 10 minutes of my time is an eternity!

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  • [–] 33 points 1 year ago

    Like most statements about work, it really depends on the job.

    For shift work without overlapping shifts, being late keeps someone else on duty after their shift is up.

    But if you're working an office gig and your work is getting done, it's fine. There's a reason I don't schedule any meetings within an hour of the start or end of the day.

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  • [–] 31 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Really depends what you are 10 minutes late for. A meeting with other participants, ok if your role is to sit and listen. Not OK if people are waiting for you to start. It's not OK to be late to relieve a co worker either

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 113 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Betty can show up ‘on time’ and spend 40 min making coffee and shit talking with her neighbors, but I show up 10 min late and start working right away but I’m the bad employee somehow.

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  • [–] 74 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Ive come to learn that employers are not paying you for your labor but for your time. They care more about your availability than how much you actually work. It is also why how hard you work never factors into how much you get paid.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You never get a raise (above inflation) by doing your current work "better" or "harder". You get a raise by changing roles completely or adding on responsibilities that expressly is worth some extra pay. Or changing company.

    But as an employee, I've come to realize that I don't value my pay as what I do, but how much time per day I dedicate towards my work. Time is all we have, really.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I agree with you but unfortunately you have to work with people, and those people's ideas of you can make it harder or easier for you to actually do your work, or influence the stress you're exposed to, so it's in your own interest to put up a good façade, then if necessary fuck them in the ass... figuratively.

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  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    10 mins late to an office job where they get their 10m back, AOK.

    10 mins late to cashier/sales gig where you're relieving someone else, not great.

    10 mins late to a meeting is bad

    10 mins late to class is bad.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    If you have a meeting first thing, don't.

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    [–] 26 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    It definitely depends on the job. I work in TV and live events. If your late you either miss the pre production meeting, or we all have to wait for you to start. If your later than that you are holding the team up and making people work harder to be ready by on-air time.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Yeah. It definitely depends on the job.

    If you're relieving someone, they might be annoyed if you're late but nobody is going to die or anything. If your work isn't extremely time sensitive, nobody should give a fuck...

    If things can't go because you're not there, and it's very time sensitive, then there's a problem. Everyone is waiting on your ass to show up.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    “ If your work isn’t extremely time sensitive, nobody should give a fuck…”

    Except if Im staying to cover for you and I have other things I need to do or want to do I might give a fuck. The “no one should really care” POV overlooks how being late can impact others.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I had a specific exception for if you're relieving someone.

    I recognised this exact issue in my original statement.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    "If you’re relieving someone, they might be annoyed if you’re late but nobody is going to die or anything."

    That's not how I read this. I read this as you suggesting it isn't a real problem.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    It's not a serious problem. Needs of the one vs needs of the many and all that.

    It's still discourteous.

    But at the same time, people who do that kind of work, generally understand how annoying it is when their relief shows up late, so that kind of thing usually works itself out naturally.... Or the chronic late person ends up needing to find a new job.

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    I can see it mattering if it's shift work and someone else has to stay late. If it's office work? Nah. Doesn't matter.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Exactly. It also matters what type of shift work. If you’re late to a hospital nursing shift, that sucks because you can’t do the changeover stuff and they’ve been there 12 hours. Or if you’re the only one taking phone calls in the morning or something. In sane a world, there would be room for decent folks as well as folks who are always on time.

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  • [+] -3 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    This is the number one mistakes that dumbfucks make about decent folks, hence why I said it that way.

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