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[–] 1 point 1 year ago

No real answer but in a general sense I try to know that most things are a matter of perspective and truth is on a probability curve

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Logical proof, is it reasonable and do peers agree. That could be a tiny amount of data or a large amount of data. It is specific to the "something".

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  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It varies widely depending on a combination of whether it impacts me directly, whether it contradicts or is inconsistent with information I have already accepted as fact, and the source. The source includes being reliable and if the fact could be something that serves the source's self interest as that would require corroboration.

    Until recently, if NASA tells me their current data shows that black holes exist at the center of a galaxy I take their word for it. They have been consistently reliable for decades and their entire mission is about increasing knowledge and sharing it with the entire world. With recent administrative changes I am more skeptical and wouldn't trust something that contradicts prior scientific discoveries without corroboration from an external agency like the European Space Agency. I would take the ESA at their word currently.

    If a for profit company says anything I want corroboration from a neutral 3rd party. They have too much incentive to lie or mislead to be trusted on their own.

    Something from a stranger that fits into prior knowledge might be accepted at face value or I might double check some other source. Depends on how important it is to me and whether believing that would lead to any obvious negative outcome. I will probably also double check if it is interesting enough to want to check, and I'll use skepticism as an excuse.

    That covers actual factual stuff that could possibly be corroborated by a third party. Facts like the Earth orbits the sun or Puerto Rico is a US territory type stuff.

    Then there are other things that can be factual but difficult to determine and that is a combination of experience and current knowledge, plus whether believing it would be a benefit or negative. If someone tells me the ice isn't thick enough based on their judgement I will treat it as a fact and not go out on it unless I had some reason not to believe them. If they told me apples were found to be unhealthy I would check other sources.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Reading it once on social media

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    It depends. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago

    is it a fun fact that impacts nothing? i'll accept it as fact immediately and without question

    is it a fact that has some weight to it? i'll probably double check and if i find a reliable source that also claims it to be fact i'll accept it (if i'm reading about it from a reliable source i will accept it immediately)

    is it a fact that contradicts my current beliefs/understanding of the world? i'll do some research on it, check if there's any recent articles like "that thing you thought was right? is not!", and depending on the nature of the fact think about why it's been debunked and how that changed my perception on the world

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I have a model of everything. Everything I am, my understanding of the world, it all fits together like a web. New ideas fit by their relationship to what I already know - maybe I'm missing nodes to fit it in and I can't accept it

    If it fits the model well, I'll tentatively accept it without any evidence. If it conflicts with my model, I'll need enough proof to outweigh the parts it conflicts with. It has to be enough to displace the past evidence

    In practice, this usually works pretty well. I handle new concepts well. But if you feed me something that fits... Well, I'll believe it until there's a contradiction

    Like my neighbors (as a teen) told me their kid had a predisposition for autism, and the load on his immune system from too many vaccines as once caused him to be nonverbal. That made sense, that's a coherent interaction of processes I knew a bit about. My parents were there and didn't challenge it at the time

    Then, someone scoffing and walking away at bringing it up made me look it up. It made sense, but the evidence didn't support it at all. So my mind was changed with seconds of research, because a story is less evidence than a study (it wasn't until years later that I learned the full story behind that)

    On the other hand, today someone with decades more experience on a system was adamant I was wrong about an intermittent bug. I'm still convinced I'm right, but I have no evidence... We spent an hour doing experiments, I realized the experiments couldn't prove it one way or the other, I explained that and by the end he was convinced.

    It's not the amount of evidence, it's the quality of it.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    It’s not the amount of evidence, it’s the quality of it.

    Quality evidence has an inherent quantity wouldn't you say?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    No? I don't care if the whole world is wrong, some evidence is strong enough to convince me forever, even if it's subjective

    Quality is all that matters. One incontrovertible fact I can poke and prod myself means more than millions of subjective accounts. Or even all of science - I'll rearrange my entire model around a new fact if it's compelling enough

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    One quality study is enough to convince you of something, even if it has never been reproduced or reviewed?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Sure. If it fills a gap in my model, I don't need any proof at all. Why would I? It just makes sense. Of course I'm going to tentatively fit it in

    And if a study convincingly disproves it, I'll just as quickly discard the tentative idea. Why wouldn't I? It made sense, but it didn't math out.

    But this is all in the context of my model. It's a big web of corroboration

    You can't convince me global warming isn't happening, because I'm watching it in real time. No amount of studies are doing to do more than inform the facts of my lived experience... I'm the primary source, I was there

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    What if you wake up from the Matrix and it turns out the world actually descended into an ice age?

    I mean, it's a silly, kinda extreme scenario, but we're talking about big picture stuff and you can't ever convince me would cover it as well.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Oh, that would fit in my model perfectly. Because it's another world... Obviously. My model isn't disproven if I wake up in another world, my model is just physically removed from my new world. Universal things still apply until they don't, but there's no conflict

    If global warming hits 2.5C then flips around to an ice age....I don't understand it, but it's happened. My old observations aren't disproven, new ones disprove the theories around them

    Squaring that circle would take effort, but if it's true it's true, and truth sometimes takes time to understand

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    (it wasn’t until years later that I learned the full story behind that)

    Okay, I can't be the only one that's kinda curious about your trainwreck neighbors. Obviously they fell down a conspiracy rabbit hole, but was there more?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Sorry to disappoint, I meant I learned the story behind the myth of vaccines causing autism. They seemed to be pretty good parents, before they moved away their kid was often outside on his bike.... He seemed happy and healthy to me.

    We had a significant age gap so we never interacted, but he was on the sidewalk frequently and never in the street when I was driving... Take from that what you will

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    I have a model of everything. Everything I am, my understanding of the world, it all fits together like a web. New ideas fit by their relationship to what I already know - maybe I'm missing nodes to fit it in and I can't accept it

    Same, and I would add the clarification that I have a model for when and why people lie, tell the truth, or sincerely make false statements (mistake, having been lied to themselves, changed circumstances, etc.).

    So that information comes in through a filter of both the subject matter, the speaker, and my model of the speaker's own expertise and motivations, and all of those factors mixed together.

    So as an example, let's say my friend tells me that there's a new Chinese restaurant in town that's really good. I have to ask myself whether the friend's taste in Chinese restaurants is reliable (and maybe I build that model based on proxies, like friend's taste in restaurants in general, and how similar those tastes are with my own). But if it turns out that my friend is actually taking money to promote that restaurant, then the credibility of that recommendation plummets.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Hume had something like the wise apportion their confidence to the evidence, and Carl Sagan's extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence can apply. So if those are true the quality and type of data is going to depend on the claim of fact (friend says they bought a dog vs a dragon), and the amount of evidence depends on the claim and your general standard of evidence. If you're lowering or raising your standards for a specific claim that's usually going to mean there's a bias for or against it.

    tl;dr 42 pieces of data

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It takes a lot for me to accept something as fact, but I'm okay with living my life on a combination of likelihoods, reasonable plausibilities, and vibes

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    It honestly depends more on the source to me. I'd like to claim to rely on data but life is short and there is no way I can verify even a fraction of all the truths I have come to accept.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    A sufficient amount

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It isn't quantity. It is the quality and logical reasoning.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Facts are hard to confirm, bullshit tends to reveal itself.

    So I have try not to cling to tightly to any given "fact", in case new evidence arrives.

    That said, is can be surprisingly easy to navigate many parts of life simply by avoiding confirmed bullshit.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago*

    It's not so much the amount as the quality.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    What happens when "science" backs up two opposing ideas with sufficient evidence and logic to make either seem plausible?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Then the science isn't done evaluating the opposing ideas. That's the beauty of science, it can be proven wrong and still work.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    How can Science be proven wrong and still work? That is not at all how Science works.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeh it is.
    Proving that a scientific theory is wrong means we don't understand enough about the thing. And we know we need to look at other theories about the thing.
    Proving things wrong as well as failed hypothesis is as important (even if it is disappointing) as proving things correct and successful hypothesis. It rules the theory out, and guides further scientific study.
    With published papers, other scientists can hopefully see what the publishing scientists missed.
    Scientists can also repeat experiments of successful papers to confirm the papers conclusion, and perhaps even make further observations that can support further studies.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    really depends on the source and if it makes sense in the first place.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I'm not sure how I would even quantify this.

    But I could qualify this: having a consensus across multiple trusted sources.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (43 children)

    There are very few pieces of knowledge that I'd consider a fact. Rather, I tend to see those as the best current knowledge that might turn out to be false in the future. The fact of consciousness is among the only things in the entire universe that I see as absolutely being true. Pretty much anything else can just be an illusion.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (42 children)

    How do you know consciousness is "true" and not also an illusion created by the brain?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Because consciousness is where illusions appear. The unconscious mind can’t experience illusions.

    I’m using Thomas Nagel’s definition of consciousness: the fact of experience - that it feels like something to be from a subjective point of view.

    Even if we’re living in a simulation and literally everything is fake, what remains undeniable is that it feels like something to be simulated. I’d argue that this is the only thing in the entire universe that cannot be an illusion.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The unconscious mind can’t experience illusions.

    How do humans dream?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    “Unconsciousness” as a clinical term is different from the absence of consciousness in the philosophical or phenomenological sense.

    A sleeping person may appear unconscious to an outside observer, but from the subjective point of view, they’re not - because dreaming feels like something. A better example of what I mean by unconsciousness is general anesthesia. That doesn’t feel like anything. One moment you’re lying in the operating room counting backwards, and the next you’re in the recovery room. There’s no sense of time passing, no dreams, nothing in between - it’s just a gap.

    Thomas Nagel explains this idea in What Is It Like to Be a Bat? by saying that if bats are conscious, then trading places with one wouldn’t be like the lights going out - it would feel like something to be a bat. But if you switched places with a rock, it likely wouldn’t feel like anything at all. It would be indistinguishable from dying - because there’s no subjectivity, no point of view, no experience happening.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    What do you disagree with here exactly?

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    A better example of what I mean by unconsciousness is general anesthesia. That doesn’t feel like anything. One moment you’re lying in the operating room counting backwards, and the next you’re in the recovery room. There’s no sense of time passing, no dreams, nothing in between - it’s just a gap.

    I am not disagreeing. I am providing you something that demonstrates the premise you built your idea on is false.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Perhaps it’s a bad analogy then, but my point still stands: what most people experience - or rather don’t experience - under general anesthesia is the absence of consciousness. If they’re dreaming, then by definition that’s not what I’m talking about.

    The point is that what people mean by “consciousness” when discussing philosophical concepts like the hard problem of consciousness is different from what a layperson typically means by the term. That is what I argue cannot be an illusion.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (33 children)

    Even if it is an illusion created by the brain, does that make it any less existent?

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (32 children)

    If you see a mirage of a spring in the desert can you quench your thirst?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (31 children)

    The fact that there is word for this experience demonstrates that the experience itself objectively exists, which only serves to prove my point.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (30 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (29 children)

    I have absolutely no idea why you are being so weird about this since obviously if the spring does not exist then it cannot be drunk from. However, what you are working bizarrely hard to go out of your way to miss is that, regardless of whether the spring itself exists in objective reality, the experience of seeing it has objective existence.

    Phrased in a different way: if you see something that looks like a spring in the desert, then that might not mean that you will be able to drink from it, but you can be certain that, in that moment, you are seeing something that looks like a spring in the desert.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (28 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (27 children)

    Does asking inane questions make you feel clever?

    I think you need to work on your argument.

    Edit: Actually, this is a teachable moment to illustrate my point: I highly suspect that you experiencing a feeling of being clever after deploying these non sequiturs is something that objectively exists, but that does not mean that you are objectively being clever.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (26 children)

    Phrased in a different way: if you see something that looks like a spring unicorn in the desert, then that might not mean that you will be able to drink from pet it, but you can be certain that, in that moment, you are seeing something that looks like a spring unicorn in the desert.

    I know you think I am trying to be clever, but I don't need to be clever to see through such simple nonsense which you are unwilling to defend.

    You can answer the question or you can stop wasting my time. Tanks. :)

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    You can answer the question or you can stop wasting my time. Tanks. :)

    Ah, so I am the one responsible for you "wasting [your] time"? That is an interesting transferal of agency on your part, but given that you are clearly waiting with baited breath for my response, here it is:

    Yes, if you see a unicorn in the desert, then you might reasonably conclude that this is only because you just ate a particular cactus, given that unicorns aren't objectively real, but that doesn't make your experience of seeing it less objectively real. But seriously, are you next going to make me defend the objective existence of the book The Last Unicorn, given that unicorns aren't real? (To save us from another back-and-forth: yes, the book does exist, so please don't actually ask me this!)

    Here, let me try a thought experiment that actually leads the discussion in a useful direction. Suppose you watched someone eat this very same cactus, after which they said, "Oh, whoa, there is a unicorn over there!" You might not consider it to be an objective fact that there actually is a unicorn over there, but I suspect that you probably would consider to be an objective fact that they are currently having the experience of seeing one. (And if the possibility that they could be lying is a problem for you, assume that the cactus was infused with truth serum.)

    In fact, it is not hard to imagine a future where we have sufficiently advance neuroscience that we can detect what is in a person's consciousness by monitoring how their neurons are firing and looking for particular patterns. In that case, you would not even have to rely on a self-report to observe the objective existence of the image of a unicorn popping into someone's vision after they ate that cactus. Heck, you could use this device on your own brain and observe a device whose objective existence you believe in produce objectively real reports about what you are experiencing.

    So experiences have objective existence, even if they do not refer to anything that objectively exists. (And, just to be clear, I am not arguing in favor of anything magical like a "soul"; I think that consciousness in the brain is just an approach that it uses to aggregate and share information amongst several subcomponents.)

    And this leads us to the fundamental point that you keep willfully missing: your experience of the world might be lying to you in any number of ways, but by definition what it cannot be lying to you about is the fact that you are having an experience of the world, because if you were not having such an experience then you would not be able to make such an observation. Even if it were entirely a fiction created by your brain, it is nonetheless a fiction that exists.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    You put a lot of effort in to something that you should have known I wasn't going to read because it doesn't answer the question.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (23 children)

    Sorry, I overestimated the level of your reading comprehension. Let me offer you some help here, since you clearly need it. You will note that my comment said,

    given that unicorns aren’t objectively real

    and

    given that unicorns aren’t real

    so your question was directly and deliberately answered twice in the negative in the context of defending my overall position, which you outright claimed I was unwilling to do.

    P.S.: Oh, sorry, I have probably still made things too complicated for your simplistic mind, haven't I? Let me make it even simpler for you, since are so desperate for an answer, and for some reason you think I am authority on this subject: no, unicorns aren't real.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (22 children)

    no, unicorns aren’t real.

    Then why are you arguing that the spring is?

    Oh right, because you are a pseudo intellectual who is full of shit.

    Take care

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    Quoth my earlier comment:

    obviously if the spring does not exist then it cannot be drunk from.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (20 children)

    Phrased in a different way: if you see something that looks like a spring in the desert, then that might not mean that you will be able to drink from it, but you can be certain that, in that moment, you are seeing something that looks like a spring in the desert.

    Phrased in a different way: if you see something that looks like a spring unicorn in the desert, then that might not mean that you will be able to drink from pet it, but you can be certain that, in that moment, you are seeing something that looks like a spring unicorn in the desert.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (19 children)

    Congratulations, you have just quoted me saying that the spring might not be real, and the "might" is there because, if you are lucky, then you may very well have been fortunate enough to have come across an actual oasis in the distance rather than a mere mirage.

    The second quote is your own fabrication and has nothing to do with anything I have argued because unicorns, unlike oases, are not even sometimes really there.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    The fact that there is word for this experience demonstrates that the experience itself objectively exists, which only serves to prove my point.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (17 children)

    Yes, that word being mirage, which is so objectively real that you can take a photograph of it:

    In contrast to a hallucination, a mirage is a real optical phenomenon that can be captured on camera, since light rays are actually refracted to form the false image at the observer's location. What the image appears to represent, however, is determined by the interpretive faculties of the human mind. For example, inferior images on land are very easily mistaken for the reflections from a small body of water.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    There is a word for "Unicorn" as well.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    A "Unicorn" is not a kind of experience; seeing a mirage is. Hence, "word for this experience".

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (14 children)

    I would imagine that seeing a Unicorn would be quite the experience.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    I don't doubt that someone, somewhere, has had the very real experience of seeing a hallucinated Unicorn while eating random cacti in the desert! It would be ironic if this experience ended up distracting them so much that they walked straight past the very real oasis they were searching for, resulting in a very real tragic death by dehydration.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (12 children)

    Why do you believe humans need anything exterior to hallucinate?

    Why is the Unicorn being imagined different than the oasis to you?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (11 children)

    Fantastic, this provides another teachable moment for you! 😀

    My comment presented something called a hypothetical situation. It is an example of how particular circumstances can lead to a specific outcome. The key takeaway is that--and I recognize this can be confusing!--it does not make any claims outside the details contained within the hypothetical.

    This answers both of your questions, but let me make it easy for you: I don't, and because I made these circumstances be true in this hypothetical situation.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Even if it is an illusion created by the brain, does that make it any less existent?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    If your brain creates the illusion of a unicorn, then the presence of the illusion is real, even if the unicorn is not.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    It is very telling that you are unable to respond directly to what I said. 😀

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Yes it is. But not the way you think.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Once again, you prove yourself too cowardly to state your thought outright. 😉

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    I have stated my thoughts quite clearly, but allow me to do it again:

    Your entire hypothesis is bunk, and you need to jump through hoops to make it work while it also immediately fails using any other example. I know you feel smart because you think philosophy matters. Which it does, but only until it runs into actual Science. You have no argument to support whatever point you are trying to make and now you default to consistent personal attacks and fart smelling because you cannot reliably justify your position.

    Is that clear enough for you or am I still "proving myself cowardly to state my thoughts"? Do you have any follow up questions to make it more clear to you?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Sure! What exactly do you think consciousness is (or is not)? You seem to think that I was motivated to enter this conversation in order to feel smart, but asked my original question because I was genuinely interested in your point of view.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Even if it is an illusion created by the brain, does that make it any less existent?

    Yes. Or in other words:

    If you see a mirage of a spring in the desert can you quench your thirst?

    That better for you?

    What exactly do you think consciousness is (or is not)?

    Evidence suggests that "consciousness" is the mechanism that allows separate parts of the brain to communicate with other parts of the brain and coordinate activities. The hypothesis is this is done by the frontal cortex which is responsible for reasoning, decision making, and controlling voluntary movements. However, there is still much research required in Neurosciences before we have a solid theory and understanding of consciousness.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Evidence suggests that “consciousness” is the mechanism that allows separate parts of the brain to communicate with other parts of the brain and coordinate activities. The hypothesis is this is done by the frontal cortex which is responsible for reasoning, decision making, and controlling voluntary movements. However, there is still much research required in Neurosciences before we have a solid theory and understanding of consciousness.

    So in other words... it exists.

    It is worth nothing that the first sentence is exactly my perspective, as I explicitly stated earlier:

    I think that consciousness in the brain is just an approach that it uses to aggregate and share information amongst several subcomponents.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago

    Even if it is an illusion created by the brain, does that make it any less existent?

    The fact that there is word for this experience demonstrates that the experience itself objectively exists, which only serves to prove my point.

    I have absolutely no idea why you are being so weird about this since obviously if the spring does not exist then it cannot be drunk from. However, what you are working bizarrely hard to go out of your way to miss is that, regardless of whether the spring itself exists in objective reality, the experience of seeing it has objective existence.

    Phrased in a different way: if you see something that looks like a spring in the desert, then that might not mean that you will be able to drink from it, but you can be certain that, in that moment, you are seeing something that looks like a spring in the desert.

    Does asking inane questions make you feel clever?

    I think you need to work on your argument.

    Edit: Actually, this is a teachable moment to illustrate my point: I highly suspect that you experiencing a feeling of being clever after deploying these non sequiturs is something that objectively exists, but that does not mean that you are objectively being clever.

    Ah, so I am the one responsible for you “wasting [your] time”? That is an interesting transferal of agency on your part, but given that you are clearly waiting with baited breath for my response, here it is:

    Yes, if you see a unicorn in the desert, then you might reasonably conclude that this is only because you just ate a particular cactus, given that unicorns aren’t objectively real, but that doesn’t make your experience of seeing it less objectively real. But seriously, are you next going to make me defend the objective existence of the book The Last Unicorn, given that unicorns aren’t real? (To save us from another back-and-forth: yes, the book does exist, so please don’t actually ask me this!)

    Here, let me try a thought experiment that actually leads the discussion in a useful direction. Suppose you watched someone eat this very same cactus, after which they said, “Oh, whoa, there is a unicorn over there!” You might not consider it to be an objective fact that there actually is a unicorn over there, but I suspect that you probably would consider to be an objective fact that they are currently having the experience of seeing one. (And if the possibility that they could be lying is a problem for you, assume that the cactus was infused with truth serum.)

    In fact, it is not hard to imagine a future where we have sufficiently advance neuroscience that we can detect what is in a person’s consciousness by monitoring how their neurons are firing and looking for particular patterns. In that case, you would not even have to rely on a self-report to observe the objective existence of the image of a unicorn popping into someone’s vision after they ate that cactus. Heck, you could use this device on your own brain and observe a device whose objective existence you believe in produce objectively real reports about what you are experiencing.

    So experiences have objective existence, even if they do not refer to anything that objectively exists. (And, just to be clear, I am not arguing in favor of anything magical like a “soul”; I think that consciousness in the brain is just an approach that it uses to aggregate and share information amongst several subcomponents.)

    And this leads us to the fundamental point that you keep willfully missing: your experience of the world might be lying to you in any number of ways, but by definition what it cannot be lying to you about is the fact that you are having an experience of the world, because if you were not having such an experience then you would not be able to make such an observation. Even if it were entirely a fiction created by your brain, it is nonetheless a fiction that exists.

    Sorry, I overestimated the level of your reading comprehension. Let me offer you some help here, since you clearly need it. You will note that my comment said,

    given that unicorns aren’t objectively real

    and

    given that unicorns aren’t real

    so your question was directly and deliberately answered twice in the negative in the context of defending my overall position, which you outright claimed I was unwilling to do.

    P.S.: Oh, sorry, I have probably still made things too complicated for your simplistic mind, haven’t I? Let me make it even simpler for you, since are so desperate for an answer, and for some reason you think I am authority on this subject: no, unicorns aren’t real.

    Quoth my earlier comment:

    obviously if the spring does not exist then it cannot be drunk from.

    Congratulations, you have just quoted me saying that the spring might not be real, and the “might” is there because, if you are lucky, then you may very well have been fortunate enough to have come across an actual oasis in the distance rather than a mere mirage.

    The second quote is your own fabrication and has nothing to do with anything I have argued because unicorns, unlike oases, are not even sometimes really there.

    Yes, that word being mirage, which is so objectively real that you can take a photograph of it:

    In contrast to a hallucination, a mirage is a real optical phenomenon that can be captured on camera, since light rays are actually refracted to form the false image at the observer’s location. What the image appears to represent, however, is determined by the interpretive faculties of the human mind. For example, inferior images on land are very easily mistaken for the reflections from a small body of water.

    A “Unicorn” is not a kind of experience; seeing a mirage is. Hence, “word for this experience”.

    I don’t doubt that someone, somewhere, has had the very real experience of seeing a hallucinated Unicorn while eating random cacti in the desert! It would be ironic if this experience ended up distracting them so much that they walked straight past the very real oasis they were searching for, resulting in a very real tragic death by dehydration.

    Fantastic, this provides another teachable moment for you! 😀

    My comment presented something called a hypothetical situation. It is an example of how particular circumstances can lead to a specific outcome. The key takeaway is that–and I recognize this can be confusing!–it does not make any claims outside the details contained within the hypothetical.

    This answers both of your questions, but let me make it easy for you: I don’t, and because I made these circumstances be true in this hypothetical situation.

    If your brain creates the illusion of a unicorn, then the presence of the illusion is real, even if the unicorn is not.

    It is very telling that you are unable to respond directly to what I said. 😀

    Once again, you prove yourself too cowardly to state your thought outright. 😉

    Sure! What exactly do you think consciousness is (or is not)? You seem to think that I was motivated to enter this conversation in order to feel smart, but asked my original question because I was genuinely interested in your point of view.

    Evidence suggests that “consciousness” is the mechanism that allows separate parts of the brain to communicate with other parts of the brain and coordinate activities. The hypothesis is this is done by the frontal cortex which is responsible for reasoning, decision making, and controlling voluntary movements. However, there is still much research required in Neurosciences before we have a solid theory and understanding of consciousness.

    So in other words… it exists.

    It is worth nothing that the first sentence is exactly my perspective, as I explicitly stated earlier:

    I think that consciousness in the brain is just an approach that it uses to aggregate and share information amongst several subcomponents.

    As I have demonstrated posting your entire side of the conversation, you never once stated what you are claiming in bold. If you did it would have satisfied my original question:

    How do you know consciousness is “true” and not also an illusion created by the brain?

    You have been acting in bad faith since point one when you answered my question with a question, then have the audacity to act like you have a point to make and I am somehow the ignoramus. Check the mirror for the latter, and come back when you actually have the prior because everything you have said is above, and all of that time could have been saved by answering the question with your own point of view instead of starting a fight with your nonsense.

    Now Jog on and go play pretend intellectual with someone else.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    ill tell you this, the amount of data would require for anyone accept a statement or idea as fact is related to their emotional assessment of the idea. See it all the time with trump supporters that think that trump is actually fighting to cut tax on overtime pay simple because he said it on the trail and there no evidence (and they have no evidence) that is happening, on the other hand it would take an infinite amount of evidence that trump took bribes even as he openly appointed Elon after spending millions of dollars.

    so its weird that you have to propagandize the facts just to get people anywhere near a reasonable level of skeptism.

    but for me I just say anything is valid unless I know how its wrong, which is limbo of acceptance then afterwards it can become a scoreboard where for and against. maybe a source doesn't 100% line up with a statement, hell even video/audio evidence can be incongruent with a statement (as in its similar to what's said but doesn't back up a statement). I think the claim that Floyd overdosed but the video doesn't show a overdose from opioids, so you'd have to rule out overdose simple because video doesn't match the description of an overdose.

    it wouldn't take much, generally new information has to be consistent with what I know. the hard part is understanding the new information. no one is randomly disprove gravity or that things have mass, but someone can prove to me how a myth is meant to be interpreted for the intended audience

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    If it's a really reliable source and sounds plausible, very little. Iran hit a hospital in Israel recently.

    If it's some random person and sounds plausible, probably many repetitions from unrelated people in unrelated contexts, with some time as "word is" after a couple or few mentions. Airport security is theater and misses actual weapons all the time. I guess I should add the caveat that if it's something easily refuted like "TSA hires out of malls" it gets promoted to fact faster, because of Cunningham's law.

    If it sounds implausible, a lot. Like, it might be a thing I painstakingly confirm or deny over the course of years. Thermodynamics is always explained in a way that has massive gaping logical holes. It obviously empirically works, but a rigorous derivation without any sneaky tricks would probably imply a proof of P!=NP - and it took me years to work my way through enough papers and literature to confirm that.

    If it's a source or type of source with a history of making up the sort of thing they're saying, infinite - it will be all noise regardless of how much data there is.

    Laying it out like this, I clearly put a lot of emphasis on the motivation and past track record of sources. There's so many things to see and measure, far too many, and there's also lies and mistakes, so I guess one has to. That's probably been true since the stone age, and probably drove some human evolution, although it's intensified quite a lot in recent history.

    Note that even facts are still subject to skepticism, discussion and revision. Absolute certainty it it's own beast, and it's not a universally agreed-on fact that it even exists.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    That's the great thing about science.

    Things that are considered facts in today's world can be disproven by new experiments and observations (recreated through experimentation and after adequate peer review).

    So for me, it depends on what is being evaluated. 2+2 is a fact. Exact age of the moon might be up for more debate.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    2+2 is a fact

    In some sense, if every single human thought that 2+2 equaled 5, it would become true

    (I'm not smart enough to come up with this lol, got it from Orwell's 1984)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    It doesn't even require belief.

    2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

    While a facetious statement in general, it is factual if those values derive from rounding. Significant Digits must be maintained.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Only if you completely redefine some aspect of the equation. You'd have to define "5" to actually mean "4" or change the meaning of "+" or "=" in some way that changes the operation. 2+2=4 isn't just an abstract statement, it's based on the way the physical world works. If you have 2 apples, and then I give you 2 more, you don't suddenly have 5 apples because we all decided 2+2=5.

    Orwell's meaning in 1984 wasn't about belief changing the world, it was about the power of brainwashing and how fascism demands obedience.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    If you have 2 apples, and then I give you 2 more, you don't suddenly have 5 apples because we all decided 2+2=5.

    No, but some types of addition follow their own rules.

    Sometimes 1+1 is 2. One Apple plus one Apple is two apples.

    Sometimes 1+1 is 1. Two true statements joined together in conjunction are true.

    Sometimes 1+1 is 0. Two 180° rotations is the same as if you didn't rotate the thing at all.

    If you don't define what kind of addition you're talking about, then it's not precise enough to talk through what is or isn't true.

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  • [–] [S] -3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    How is 2 + 2 a fact?

    How do you know, through new experiments and observations, that we will never determine the exact age of the moon?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    You have 2 apples. I give you 2 more. How many apples do you have? Unless you redefine what the numbers or the operators mean, then you now have 4 apples. That's a truth that is evident in the world and can be verified. That's what a fact is.

    He didn't suggest we could never determine the age of the moon. He said that science refines it's methods and gathers new information, and so we may change our estimate of its age based on new evidence.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I remember there was one fact I was really beating my head on; A dishwasher should always have some food or other gunk on the dishes before starting the machine, otherwise the detergent will attack the coloring on the dishes instead.

    How has no company solved this problem? It makes no sense. Many people do wash their kitchenware so it doesn't stink up the entire dishwasher if it has been sitting for a while... idk.

    I would be happy to hear if anyone can help confirm or dismiss this.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I'm going out on a limb and saying untrue.

    How would the dish soap not "attack" the pigments on the crockery not covered by gunk, do you need to make sure that the plate is covered in an even spread? It's a desurficant, iirc, with hydrophobic molecules to get into molecular scale sized spaces. Maybe unvarnished crockery could lose the colour... But eating off that and washing it wouldn't be the best choice either.

    Also, most dishwashers instruct you to rinse the worst off in the sink before loading. And we've followed that and most of our china still has good colours, the one that doesn't I know was left in direct sunlight for over a summer.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Phosphates were banned in dishwasher detergents in 2011, so most of the name brand companies switched to enzyme-based cleaners that use amylase and protease, which dissolve starches and proteins, respectively. And then some traditional detergent, which allows oil and water to mix, washes it all away.

    The nature of the enzymes are that as soon as they've broken up the starch or protein, they survive the reaction and can happily move onto the next starch or protein molecule. So if they're overactive, without enough targets, then any portion of the dishes that are sensitive to that particular cleaner is going to get a higher "dose" of that cleaner working specifically at it.

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