"High-altitude winds between 1,640 and 3,281 feet (500 and 10,000 meters) above the ground are stronger and steadier than surface winds. These winds are abundant, widely available, and carbon-free.

"The physics of wind power makes this resource extremely valuable. “When wind speed doubles, the energy it carries increases eightfold, triple the speed, and you have 27 times the energy,” explained Gong Zeqi "

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[–] 123 points 1 year ago (11 children)

1,640 and 3,281 feet (500 and 10,000 meters)

I feel like this needs a second look.

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  • [–] 103 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    As a European... Are feet logarithmic? Wouldn't even surprise me that much.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    So that "10,000 meters" didn't scale right, clearly. But you also can't possibly call those "high altitudes". Small planes like cessnas fly at low altitudes, like 2,000 - 5000 ft, a 747 flys at a high altitude, 40,000 ft; 1600 ft is nothing, that's lower than some buildings.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago

    I cant wait for the conspiracy theories about this

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago

    This looks like a good way to bring power to a remote area, and China has lots of those.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Say what you will at least China seems produce some much needed tech in exchange for selling their people to capitalism, the latter which almost all countries do but in exchange for funnelling the 99.99 % of the revenue to billionaires and/or war (pulled the stats out of my hass).

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Switching to renewables makes a lot of sense from an economic and ecologic point of view but also geostrategically. Unfortunately, Western governments have pretty much lost the ability to act on those considerations. This is due to then being beholden to a few billionaires who would rather see civilisation as we know it end than accept a few percentage points revenue drop for a couple of quarters.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    They aren’t limited by democracy.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    This is a factual statement. Whether people like how it sounds or not.

    It is true, though lacking fail safes of a real democracy is a dangerous game to play in the long term, even if technically positive in an instance. As most autocratic leaders seek to gain continuous and more power. Or their predecessor does.

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  • [–] 73 points 1 year ago (17 children)

    Ha! Watch us burn some liquid dinosaurs!

    - USA

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  • [–] 37 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Fossil fuels are from shit the dinos ate, like plants and other dumb crap. The belief that coal-rollers are cool enough to burn liquid dinosaurs is easily the single biggest lie of the oil industry.

    Closely followed by -gestures wildly-

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    And Africa, and South America, and the middle east, and Europe. Don't pretend the rest of the world isn't still burning fossil fuels it's not just the US

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    USA is pretty much the biggest country actively fighting against better methods in favor of fossil fuels, so I'd say it's an accurate statement

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    Meanwhile, large chunks of the world still use coal as their primary power source. Hell, Germany's coal share is higher than the US'.

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    USA is pretty much the biggest country actively fighting against better methods in favor of fossil fuels, so I’d say it’s an accurate statement

    From how darkly colored the countries are, the countries actively fighting against better methods are China, India, and South Africa, among others. Unless of course you don't consider running coal as your primary power source 'actively fighting against better methods'.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I don't consider that, indeed. Bonus points for reading comprehension.

    USA is the only country where I hear the president say that green needs to go and fossil fuels are the way to go.

    Showing a snapshot of coal usage also makes no sense in this context. A country cannot just drop fossil fuel from one day to the next. If you check relevant data, you'll see that the share of green fuel is actually rising in China.

    Sadly, the industry is still very corrupt, where USA is he prime example, with the president is pretty much admitting to it publicly.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Showing a snapshot of coal usage also makes no sense in this context.

    It's the most tangible way to show who and who is not taking this seriously. Power generation used to be heavily coal in every country. The countries who have replaced it with better power generation sources are taking things much more seriously than the others.

    USA is the only country where I hear the president say that green needs to go and fossil fuels are the way to go.

    Meanwhile, Germany's on-lining coal plants. Actions >>>>> words

    You know who is taking things seriously? France. They are kicking fucking ass. And it's because they went nuclear, where they get 70% of their power.

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    you’ll see that the share of green fuel is actually rising in China

    Praising China for green fuel while their primary power generation is coal is fucking wild. It's certainly better they are improving things, but until they do, everyone else with a better shade deserves more praise than you are giving China. Give that praise to France, Sweden, Norway, and Finland.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    adding over 1tw of solar per year deserves a lot of praise. That they make everything for the world requires more power. Focusing on this is usually a pretext for doing much less energy transition work than China does.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago*

    Focusing on this is usually a pretext for doing much less energy transition work than China does.

    Please redirect praise from China to countries who actually deserve it; like France, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. It's just fucking wild to praise China, a country that gets most of their power from coal, for doing well on power generation while shitting on a country that has done more than them.

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  • [–] 32 points 1 year ago

    Finally the stupid floating jet engine looking turbines from Big Hero 6, except IRL they actually look good.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    It's a novel approach, but the Chinese aren't the only ones trying to harvest energy from high winds: https://skysails-power.com/how-power-kites-work/

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Promising concept too, but this is 250-500x the scale of that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    How so, when skysails talks about "Venyo harnesses the power of high-altitude winds with speeds of 13 m/s and a continuous output of up to 200 kW." while the S1500 is featured with "Inside this duct are 12 turbine-generator sets, each rated at 100 kW."?
    It's more like factor 5-6.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Their v2 product produces about 5kw at much lower altitude (weaker 9m/s winds). 13m/s is a big ask. They don't go as high as 1000m. I was comparing to their v2 product instead of the 200w theoretical max of their v1 product. But the blimp may not produce 1.2mw all the time either.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    What matters is scalability and how much material and cost you need to produce per energy unit. Kites (either parasails or fixed wing) are much simpler, can be scaled up too, and you only need a simple cable that pulls the generator's winch. Overall kites seem much more efficient to scale up.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    That looks complicated and frankly kind of stupid. Imagine trying to get something like that working without having an engineer standing by that can get everything fixed once it crashes down or something else like that happens.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    IDK, the benefit to the goofy kite design is that the aerial portion is far simpler - and there's no massive energized cable hanging in the air. It's a little... non-conventional, but it's a great deal less complicated than floating a massive generator like the chinese solution. Downside is presumably lower energy density per unit, but the reduction in operational footprint might make the two designs competitive. It's good people are exploring both options!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    The simpler design might lead to lower prices per kWh, which will in the end play a role together with reliability, e.g min/avg power output, durability, outages.
    I find it impressive how creative engineers get. Let's hope for a third option ;)

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Fair, but please name one single way to generate that kind of electrical power that can be fixed by a layperson in case something crashes.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    At least the Chinese version doesn't rely on as many moving parts to keep it aloft. And a complicated mechanical system to produce a flight path. The blimp itself is complicated, but it's not a kite.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    In the end the TCO (per kWh) will play a major role, especially for big installations and for smaller ones the price floor.
    I suppose a helium filled blimp with 12 turbines will be more pricey than a kite with a generator. If the kite fills your need, pick that.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (15 children)

    When wind speed doubles, the energy it carries increases eightfold,

    Edit: I'm wrong, see edit below!

    Huh? Kinetic energy increase is square, not cubic.

    KE=1/2 m v^2

    So every doubling of speed should increase the available kinetic energy by 4 times, not 8. 3 times the speed is 9 times the energy. Granted there are probably some efficiency gains in excess of this at the low end, but as a rule that's just wrong.

    Edit: Cool, I learned something new! I neglected to consider it in terms of power, just thought about kinetic energy.

    So something like: KE = 1/2 m v^2

    = 1/2 ( rho V) v^2

    = 1/2 ( rho A d) (d/t)^2

    = 1/2 rho A d^3 1/t^2

    Where P = KE/t

    Thus:

    P = 1/2 rho A (d/t)^3

    = 1/2 rho A v^3

    Lots of other aspects I'm sure I have wrong, but I see how the cubic came to be.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Its cubic actually

    https://thundersaidenergy.com/downloads/wind-power-impacts-of-larger-turbines/

    I don't understand the physics, but every model of power output from wind turbines uses V^3 for the formula

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That's a good link.

    During the stampede scene in the Lion King, imagine the wildebeests were stampeding twice as fast. Then Simba's dad Mufasa would not only have quadruple the amount of energy imparted by each wildebeest, but also be trampled by twice as many wildebeests per second, so the rate of energy imparted on Mufasa per second would be 4 x 2 = 8 times greater when velocity doubles.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    thx for the link! just spent the last hr reading about windmills. and although I live in a country full of them I've often wondered, but never really paused to ponder about the intricacies that go into windmill design. fascinating stuff!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I work with statistics and joined a wind power forecast project, so I have been reading papers on wind power generation for the past month. There's other more complex formulas that the one shared on the link, but that was the first I found not pay walled.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    We don't directly harvest the kinetic energy. That increase probably has to do with how the wind provides lift to the blades. Of course, you couldn't keep increasing like that until the harvested energy is greater than the kinetic energy. But I'm sure at any wind speed we only get a tiny fraction.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Kinetic energy is exactly what’s harvested, which is why modern wind turbines are not far off the theoretical limit of the amount of energy that can be extracted. (Betz’s law)

    By taking energy from wind, you slow it down. Slow it down too much, and it can’t get out of the way in time for new air.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I could have stated it better. What I meant was that the fraction of kinetic energy that is taken from the wind is so small that the total kinetic energy in the wind is probably not the important factor that changes with wind speed. The dynamics of how the lift depends on wind speed is probably much more important.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    It is actually a notable fraction (~60%) and more importantly constant.
    Meaning if your wind has 27x more energy, you can also capture 27x more energy.

    This is the energy taken from the wind passing through the disk the turbine spins in, so turbines are placed in spaced out rows to let the wind mix with all the air that didn't pass through a turbine and pick up speed again.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Am I crazy or didn’t we see these in Big Hero 6?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Neat.

    Any real reason you can't fill them with hydrogen? A fire can't start inside the bubble, because there's no oxygen. If a fire starts on the outer surface, then it doesn't really matter if it's hydrogen or not. It's also cheaper and slightly better at lifting. There is some more danger with handling it on the ground, but you should be able to mitigate that with safety procedures.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Yes the Hindenburg disaster had more to do with the flammable paint used than the hydrogen inside it. But the safety procedures when working with on the ground may be more expensive than just using helium.

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    [–] 29 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Incredible progress on a concept that has been seeking investment for last 15 years. It doesn't just provide 1.2mw, it also operates at a higher capacity factor than capturing winds closer to ground. I'm sure it can scale even higher.

    This is useful for clean energy shipping. Design supports an unthethered airship that produces H2 and transports it at the same time. I believe the design would support forward momentum directly upwind, but some tacking angle would be supported.

    This is not just a breakthrough in wind energy generation, it is a breakthrough in airship capability.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Meanwhile in the US, rich assholes are firmly convinced coal and oil are the future.

    God I hate this place.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    An untethered AWE cannot produce any power

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Contentious. Thethering increases power production by restricting the "sail movement power". The blimp part is highly/perfectly aerodynamic, and the betz limit means that a turbine does not fully "act like a parachute". Ground vehicles that proved faster than wind speed directly upwind could use similar principle to turn a propulsion prop, that increases forward/apparent wind speed generating more power.

    This relates to same incredulity for faster than wind upwind ground experiment, and needs experimental proof. But principles of sailing are indeed magical, and simply generating enough power to move forward is extremely useful, even if tacking were needed.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    In all your examples there is the ground to provide a counteracting force. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by untethered, but any initial airspeed difference between the wind and your system will eventually vanish and you'll move along with the surrounding air.

    I co-founded an AWE startup 8 years ago and let me tell you, literature does not support your claim.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)
  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago

    electrolysis of water (partially from starting water reservoir, and partially from air humidity = dehumidifier step), can displace water weight with increased H2 pressure in airship. Can put an infinite amount of these over ocean with no land lease costs, but moving giant ships solves the issue of thethering them.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This thread is telling me one thing and one thing only: I need to see Big Hero 6...

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago

    Saw this in Big Hero Six. It's a crazy concept. Hopefully it works.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    It looks like a boss bloon from BTD6 lol

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