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[–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Tax payer money has been wasted on this.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    As in all types of research, yes. Some of it proves to be a good idea and gets wider adoption, some of it falls by the wayside. No one can predict which one it's going to be until the dust settles, so yes some money will get "wasted" but not in the same way as say, a politician's salary where they spend all their time stopping things from happening and don't actually do anything or achieve anything. That's a waste of taxpayer dollars.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I get annoyed when articles talk about one of hydrogen’s problems being a lack of infrastructure to deliver the fuel. Of course there’s not today since there’s no demand for it. If the cars start to develop as a market then the infrastructure would be built as well. The same thing has happened with electric cars. But it would take some entity investing in the infrastructure and being willing to wait years to see a return on the investment.

    Of course, hydrogen has a lot of other problems that mean it’s probably not viable. Lack of infrastructure is just a weak argument against it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I love this game but my god so much DLC

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Korean companies has invested in hydrogen cars, which is why it will never going to be a thing.

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  • 26 comments in c/technology@beehaw.org view that post
    [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    Ideally there are no harmful combustion byproducts when used in ICE, the reality is probably less harmful combustion byproducts, not none Hydrogen is lossy, Conversions being inefficient, Molecules small enough to migrate from containment, Embrittlement of pipes & tanks
    3 or more times the infrastructure per watt delivered, a huge investment in resources
    I suppose if there is excess generating capacity, hydrogen could be used as a storage medium for night time

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (20 children)

    As noted in the article comments, not only are all of the theoretical benefits just not realized, but it's also nothing but greenwashing since hydrogen is a byproduct of fossil fuel production ("green hydrogen" seems like a pipedream.

    Now if only the US wasn't slowly shooting itself in all ten toes with EV production and renewable energy policies....

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I mean, there's also white hydrogen and blue hydrogen, and other paths to green hydrogen than electrolysis.

    We still will have to figure out the hydrogen economy, if only for steelmaking and similar.

    Edit: Electrolysis varies in efficiency, too. The basic science fair kind is a lot worse than it is with careful catalysis, and research into those catalysts is ongoing.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    ? You can get Hydrogen through simple water electrolysis. In fact you can do it at home. That's like how 4% of all hydrogen is manufactured.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    It takes more energy than it's worth.

    The infrastructure isn't there, and hydrogen is more dangerous than gasoline if it leaks.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Hydrogen is more dangerous than gasoline if it leaks

    I'd love to see a source on that.

    This Report by the US department of energy says otherwise.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    My chemistry lab experiment. 😅

    Spicy gas go boom.

    I suppose a slow leak wouldn't be that bad though. A catastrophic failure from a collision would be not great.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I was definitely in the same camp of thinking (I mean Hindenburg etc, duh). But there's been a bunch of studies where, because hydrogen basically immediately dissappates up and away, unless you're in an extremely cramped area it's much safer in collisions and unexpected containment breaches.

    Even then, it actually poses less of a threat to life because it doesn't create smoke or burn for awhile like gasoline does.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You may not realize this, but 4% is not most.

    You should also ask yourself how most of the electricity is generated to electrolysis the hydrogen.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You didn't say "most" on your original post. You might want to edit it if that's what you meant.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I suppose that's fair, but given the context, an insignificant amount of... still not green hydrogen is sort of irrelevant

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I think the idea is that if the infrastructure for hydrogen fuel exists and using fossil fuels is penalized, there's an incentive to start producing more of it via electricity by, as an example, using excess power produced by renewable energy sources when demand is low, balancing the grid and leveling out electricity price fluctuations at the same time.

    This relies on a lot of technical, economical, and political ifs though. The end goal is desirable but it's not clear if there's a feasible path there, considering the physical properties of hydrogen alone.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Hydrogen does not have to be a byproduct of petroleum production, you can drill just for hydrogen.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    We'll see.

    Once there's enough hydrogen drilling and hydrogen production no longer depend on fossil fuel, then maybe H2 vehicules will make sense. Or maybe H2 will still be impractical due to other drawbacks.

    Meanwhile it make sense to focus on less polluting options.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Also it seems to be a good energy storage...for cases where you have irregular energy production. Create hydrogen via electrolysis using the energy surplus from wind, photovoltaic etc.
    And if you need the power, you get it back via fuel cells.

    I think I saw a documentary about the shetland islands, where they have (or had) a power surplus from wind farms mich grater than they where able to transfer to the main land.

    I guess these are the cases which make sense...but creating another supply network to bring the hydrogen fuel everywhere might not be the way to go...

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    to date there is zero evidence of meaningful deposits of geological hydrogen. There is definitely hydrogen in the crust, but, so far zero evidence that it accumulates in meaningful amounts in the areas we can currently drill to.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    lol my wife literally was the project manager for a hydrogen site in Arizona. No clue where you got your information, but it’s just absolutely incorrect.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    The United States Geological Service. Has put out several reports on the topic of geological hydrogen deposits and that was their conclusion in everyone.

    A pocket producing an amount is not the same as a significant deposit.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Can you link one? A quick look gave this:

    A recent study by the USGS estimates that there could be millions of Mt of natural hydrogen in accumulations in the Earth’s crust (Ellis and Gelman, 2024). However, there is a great deal of uncertainty associated with this prediction and the model does not evaluate the potential size or distribution of hydrogen accumulations. Most of this hydrogen is likely to be in accumulations that are too deep, too far offshore, or too small to ever be economically recovered. That said, even a small fraction of the estimated amount of subsurface hydrogen could potentially meet all global projected demand for hundreds of years. Consequently, the key to understanding geologic hydrogen resource potential is to examine the geologic factors that affect the potential to form accumulations.

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  • Took them long enough

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I'm m happy that they're giving up on a non-feasible idea, but I'm so fucking sad that they are giving up on the larger hope of finding a post-fossil-fuel alternative to displace the ICE (also, fuck ICE in both contexts)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Turns out lugging millions of heavy metal boxes around is a tough thing to make climate friendly

    I wonder if we were developing petroleum refining and engines now instead of them being established and subsidised, if we would also find them to be unfeasible. I know petroleum products are ludicrously energy dense, but the whole process to make it usable is pretty intense, the infrastructure needed to get it everywhere is extensive, it leaks, it burns, and it smells bad.

    It would be interesting to see the modern day cost associated with building out and maintaining gas infrastructure for cars

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    There's three factors at play: depletion of the easiest reservoirs, sociological changes and increasing feasibility of competing technologies. The answer is going to depend on which things you're assuming away.

    Like, in this parallel modern world, is everyone using EVs, or horse and buggy? Early cars sucked - you basically had to be a mechanic just to own one, on top of the low speed, range and features - but they beat the shit out of no cars. It's also worth noting petroleum products were burned in lamps first, so there was already a limited infrastructure for cars to use. If all the easy oil still isn't there I doubt we'd bother, but with those gushing deposits of sweet crude just below Texas that used to exist the process would be much simpler.

    The sociological one might be the easiest to answer. There's plenty of heavy industry that's nasty to be around, oil isn't unique or even the worst offender, so that's fine. If it's the horse and buggy world people aren't going to tolerate tons of steel whizzing them by with no enclosure, though. Most of that kind of thing was outlawed in the mid 20th century, but cars were just so ubiquitous. So, by that count, gas powered trains would be the application.

    There's a chance the greenhouse effect would be predicted and managed actively from the start, because science has come a long way. I'd guess urban air pollution regulation would end up in about the same place.

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  • 5 comments in c/hardware@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] [S] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Finally, there's virtually no infrastructure for hydrogen road vehicles to refuel.

    I would argue this is by far the biggest issue with hydrogen fuel. Other drawbacks could arguably be addressed with scale and additional work.

    It's just that hydrogen actually kinda sucks as a fuel, and automaker Stellantis announced today that it is ending the development of its light-, medium- and heavy-duty FCEVs, which were meant to go into production later this year.

    Meant to go in production later this year? I doubt anyone at Stellantis believed this.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I would argue this is by far the biggest issue with hydrogen fuel. Other drawbacks could arguably be addressed with scale and additional work.

    That's still the biggest problem with EVs. If the technology is sound, it shouldn't matter - they'd be pushing it anyway.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Is it? Every house in my neighborhood has a 240V power line running to it, with 100A service typical.

    There isn't a single hydrogen fuel station in my entire state.

    Power delivery seems like basically a solved issue, Level 2 charging is attainable for practically all households with minimal personal investment; and Level 3 charging is mostly an investment in the physical stations to rectify AC to high voltage DC, the wires that carry the AC are already there.

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  • I agree with the other person as an EV owner, myself. I charge at home, yeah, but road trips are a bitch to do in an EV, as it is, for one example.

    Granted, apps like PlugShare and my EV’s navigation system help plan routes, but it’s still got a lot of range anxiety that you might end up with a dead battery somewhere.

    Too often do I go to a station on the map and the cables are cut by some vandal or the machine simply isn’t working for one reason or another or it’s being hogged by someone who is using it as their personal campground/personal free charger and they live a block away or it’s just being a pain for no reason, like a lot of Shell chargers at Amazon stores, Kohls, etc. Tesla superchargers are the only real working solution here that are always dependable for me but they’re not everywhere and the recent vandalism against them made it worse in some places for anyone to reliably charge.

    It’s not on the same level as hydrogen station availability is, for sure, and the convenience of charging at home helps, but doesn’t do much when out and about far from home.

    I went to pick up some family up at our nearby airport and it was insane how many places gave me issues trying to find a charger to top off my range. This place was hogged, that place was broken, that place didn’t exist, that one was only for the dealership…finally had to just bite the bullet and waste 10 miles to get to a Tesla supercharger that had 11 spots available and in 8 minutes of charging, I was back on the road. Took me less time charging than I did driving everywhere to find a charger.

    Range is still really crappy on new vehicles barely touching 300 miles in some cases, which decreases quickly in the first year by at least 20-50 miles and more as time goes on. We’re seeing more touching 400, but I’m skeptical of their estimates. I did see one with 1,000 out of China, but really wondering how they’re managing to pull that off and how truthful it is in real world use.

    Again, definitely not on the same level of hydrogen, but for those used to gasoline and the convenience of finding a gas station in the middle of the Mojave desert or the convenience of carrying a Jerry can, EVs are still somewhat near this level. I’m honestly amazed since electricity is literally everywhere that the system is the way it is. I feel frustrated knowing electricity is flowing through those wires above and yet I could still end up stranded somewhere because of one reason or another.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I bought stocks of Ballard Power years ago when hydrogen cells were going to be The Next Big Thing. Not many stocks thankfully, because it slipped further and further and then got delisted. It seems to be one of those things like airships that gets revived every 20 years or so.

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