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[–] 14 points 1 month ago (14 children)

From the previous version:

Leftists oppose the fact that the capitalists control the world. Liberals support the fact that capitalists control the world, and some of them are very loud about how they wish that control was administered more politely.

Of course liberals and leftists fight, for the same reason that leftists fight with more impolite right-wingers. We share a fundamental disagreement, an unbridgeable chasm. It's not contrived. It's a deep theoretical, practical, and moral disagreement, namely on the role of capitalism (or lack thereof) in our shared future.

Any coalition involving both liberals and leftists must eventually pick a side to resolve this divergence in our interests. And frankly, the only way to resolve it is to either become leftist and abandon liberalism, or devolve into yet another liberal capitalist waste of time and air.

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  • [–] [S] -4 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    Leftists get a pass. Dont worry they will chip in on the next struggle against oppression.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    ...do you think leftists aren't contributing to various struggles against oppression?

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  • [+] [S] -7 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    Not in any impactful way unless you count accelerationism as a humanitarian effort.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    Mutual Aid groups? Community defense organizations? ICE watch? Stop Cop City? Back in the day, Dakota Oil Pipeline protests? The anti-Zionist movement? Black Lives Matter? Occupy Wall Street? Obviously not all of these are exclusively leftist, but in all of these, leftists have had huge presence.

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  • [–] [S] -2 points 1 month ago* (8 children)

    Hey, Im terse, I know, but mad respect here.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    When it comes to boots-on-the-ground individuals actually having a physical presence and doing the work of building communities, leftists are often the only ones there. Liberals abandoned that work a long time ago. Part of the reason the left lost the working-class vote has been because having the weight of the "enlightened centrists" around our necks stunted the real work to improve their living conditions. Of course they're going to be resentful when all they get is patronizing words and no results. "But we have to keep the donors happy" the heck we do. Bending the knee to the robber barons and nerfing every effort to benefit workers has violated the trust of everyone who once believed that we could do more together than worship a golden throne. If we're going to earn that trust back, the last thing we need is become more conservative. We need to deliver results, and that's not something a Liberal knows anything about.

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  • [–] [S] -1 points 1 month ago* (6 children)

    Sounds like prejudice and virtue signaling to me.

    One sweeping statement you take credit for any amount of good with nothing to back it up other than blind confidence.

    Straight maga type rhetorical bs.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Keep rejecting people's lived experience, it worked so well for you when you were telling everyone "I don't know what you're worried about, the economy is fine on paper."

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  • [–] [S] -1 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I told people this? Who are you shadow boxing?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    "You", is a also a collective noun.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The fact it has to say "lefty liberal" kinda proves it's not infighting

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    because it is. when someone is trying to kick you out of the party ask yourself if an undercover republican or russian bot would more likely be doing this over someone who legitimately is part of the party.

    be wary of rumours and triple check the source.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)
  • Guess we'll see if this bait post lasts any longer than the previous one. Don't bother feeding the troll... just report

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    'lefty liberal infighting'

    i'm not infighting with liberals, you're not in the coalition. it's just fighting, cause people like you are the reason we are where we are

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    What, am I just supposed to go back to not treating everyone I interact with as an adversary even though I'm in an overwhelmingly leftist space? But that's how Maga winsss!!!!¡

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  • [+] [S] -7 points 1 month ago (20 children)

    Gotta keep the infighting alive! For capital!

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (19 children)

    It's not infighting if we're not within the same organization or coalition. It's just fighting.

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  • [+] [S] -6 points 1 month ago* (18 children)

    Then quit running DSA candidates under the DNC.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    I wish they'd do that too, but also real "but you participate in society, curious" energy there given that America is under a two party system.

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  • [–] [S] -5 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    No, in context its a very real criticism of their stance. Stop trying to jam every thought terminating cliche into every conversation that criticizes your ideology.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    I can't believe I've lived long enough to see "thought-terminating cliche" become a thought-terminating cliche.

    More seriously, yes it's criticism; it's just (for the reason I gave) not very good criticism. The way the American system works, you don't need to agree with or like the people in a party to run under its name, and under a two-party system there's no reason to self-impose that condition.

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  • [–] [S] -4 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    Again youre missing the context.

    Op was saying there is no coalition. If that were true quit trying build one with the DNC. Otherwise, if the DSA can stand on its own, it would have.

    Thats why he went straight to gatekeeping because he knows its true that leftys side with liberals in the usa.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Again youre missing the context.

    I'm not it's literally right there.

    If that were true quit trying build one with the DNC.

    Again, an important feature of the American system is that you don't have to do that to run under a party's name. Borrowing the label for name recognition is something you can do here and it doesn't mean you're in the same team as the rest of the party.

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  • [–] [S] -3 points 1 month ago*

    Again, context has no meaning to you.

    If you tent with the DNC youre going to pull support from entrenched liberals. It doesn't matter what your intentions are unless its just to drag the whole thing down. If the DSA does become the majority voice they are still dependant on liberals to uphold the party. Force them out and you will only revitalize the GOP. If thats youre goal fine but youre not better for it.

    Or maybe you are but its yet to be seen that a Leftist majority can maintain power. At the very least you should make your intentions more clear and then ill hand it to you.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (11 children)

    Yeah I'm an anarchist, I don't care about platforming Democratic """socialists""". Actually, I think the DSA ultimately siphons good people away from fighting oppression into liberal power structures, i.e. they benefit liberalism more than they help advance anti-capitalist worker power. There are definitely good people in the DSA, but IMO they're wasting their time and energy.

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  • [–] [S] -5 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    I mean you can discount the socialists as a part of the left if you want. Im just saying titles have lost their usefulness at that level of scrutiny.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    At least anarchists and socialists have the same end goal in mind

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (4 children)

    Not to be divisive, but...not completely. I would argue that anarchism is more comprehensive in its desire to eliminate hierarchy and authority than socialism. Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism, and we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.

    For this reason, even though anarchists and other socialists both want to abolish capitalism and put workers in control of the means of production...we have wildly different visions for what that looks like. We share a common language primarily, and many common values (e.g. egalitarianism, anti-racism, anti-fascism, feminism, anti-LGBTphobia, internationalism, anti-imperialism, anti-capitalism), but the theoretical and practical divide between anarchism and Marxism is fundamental.

    That being said, non-anarchist socialists are absolutely leftists. No question. We do share enough commonality to share that label. But we do not have exactly the same goals.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    This reply was supposed to come sooner but yeah you're right. I was mostly referring to the goal of establish a true Communist society (stateless classless moneyless). Of course the how we get there and what it looks like can be very different depending on the ideology.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    Anarchists are socialists, but most anarchists want to go further than socialism

    I'd argue that's most socialists. Ideologically I'm an anarcho-communist, if I could snap my fingers and instantly give everyone class consciousness and a stable anarch-communist society, I would. But I can't, so I think in terms of steps to get there. Shifting the perspectives of hundreds of millions of people takes time and effort.

    Right now, the next obvious step to me is market socialism. Eventually the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid, but that will take time. Consequentially, I presently advocate Democratic Socialism. Once we have that, I'll take another step towards anarchy, rinse and repeat.

    we all want to do it in a way that respects means-ends unity, i.e. the means we use to achieve our ends should resemble those ends.

    I think this perspective underestimates the strength of the forces opposing us. Not just the actual individuals deliberately working against us, but also the alienated and propagandized working class.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Right now, the next obvious step to me is market socialism. Eventually the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid, but that will take time.

    Why do you think that the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid? I haven't seen any historical evidence that free markets tend to do anything other than concentrate wealth. This is a (mild) ideological disagreement I have even with left-market anarchists.

    if I could snap my fingers and instantly give everyone class consciousness and a stable anarch-communist society, I would

    That's...not what it means to be an anarcho-communist. Obviously we cannot change the entire world in a day (unless you have access to a gamma ray burst 😆). Anarcho-communism isn't against stepwise processes, but our critique of state socialists is that the State is structurally incapable of bringing about communism within any time bound. Put simply: the State is a hierarchy that needs to be destroyed. Strengthening it, even in pursuit of noble ends, is a step backwards for proletarian freedom.

    When we say that ends should match the means, we do not mean to live our ideal lives immediately as if capitalism never happened. What we mean is that the solutions we pursue should reflect the values and priorities of the world we actually want to see. Since we want to see a world without hierarchy and authority, and as a corollary a stateless world, it makes no sense from an anarchist perspective to support a "socialist" state as part of the transition to anarchy. I.e., we should not build systems that we will have to revolt against in the future.

    Consequentially, I presently advocate Democratic Socialism. Once we have that, I'll take another step towards anarchy, rinse and repeat.

    But that's not a step towards anarchy almost at all. That's a step towards something else.

    I think this perspective underestimates the strength of the forces opposing us. Not just the actual individuals deliberately working against us, but also the alienated and propagandized working class.

    I am painfully aware that my views are minority views. Literally all my family and friends are not even socialists at all; most of my family are Trump supporters. Anarchists are doing huge jail sentences for protesting at Prarieland. The AmeriKKKan settler-colonial project is openly targeting anarchists. My own family would be thrilled to watch me burn if they knew my actual views. And I yell on Lemmy all the time about how the current bourgeoisie are some of the worst creatures ever born, and I am constantly watching news and reading about the vile things the bourgeoisie are capable of, e.g. the Gaza genocide. I'm aware. My comrades are aware. If they weren't aware of the abuses the capitalists foist upon us...they wouldn't be anarchists.

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  • Why do you think that the market should yield to spontaneous mutual aid?

    When I say "should", I mean in the sense of an imperative. As in "You should brush your teeth before going to bed" not "The bus should be here in 5 minutes". It is the intention to drive the market towards spontaneous mutual aid through post-scarcity.

    As to the how, I specify market socialism as an initial intermediary step. Collective ownership, even limited to the firm level, inherently counteracts wealth concentration by distributing profits between the worker-owners. Maximizing worker-ownership is the primary focus. Eventually, abolish the stock market entirely and replace existing stocks with bonds.

    From there, as automation prevails (with profits settling more equally) the work week will get shorter and shorter and production cheaper and cheaper until it basically isn't worth the trouble of keeping track anymore.

    I get the skepticism, but socialist markets have fundamental differences from capitalist ones; the primary difference being wealth concentration.

    Anarcho-communism isn't against stepwise processes, but our critique of state socialists is that the State is structurally incapable of bringing about communism within any time bound.

    Which is why I'm presently a market socialist, not a state socialist. The state is just another centralized hierarchy. Businesses are distributed. Parallel to the economy, the next social step is community development, and flattening of hierarchies through densely iterative representation. Don't get me started.

    What we mean is that the solutions we pursue should reflect the values and priorities of the world we actually want to see.

    Which I respect, but when pursued beyond the context of the material conditions of the world in which we currently live, those values and priorities can be taken to the point of impotent ideological virtue signaling. We're wrestling pigs here, and if we're preoccupied with keeping our shirt clean then we're not gonna make much progress.

    Since we want to see a world without hierarchy and authority

    Never gonna happen, and I think you might be stretching anarchist theory. There are too many people on this planet to coexist without organizational hierarchy and authority. You need hierarchy to accomplish any complex task, you need authority to keep some asshole from dumping waste in the river. The point of anarchy, as I understand it, is to make those hierarchies as flat as possible, and those authorities democratically controlled and revokable.

    it makes no sense from an anarchist perspective to support a "socialist" state as part of the transition to anarchy. I.e., we should not build systems that we will have to revolt against in the future

    There is no future where you don't have to fight some system. Whatever happens between now and the future, there will be a system of some sort. A distributed democratic state with worker-owned industry is probably the easiest system for an anarchist to fight.

    Don't get me wrong, each step is going to have challenges, but my goal is to find the path where each transition is as easy as possible. There are still a few steps between market socialism and anarcho-communism. But from my calculations, the next step which is the easiest to transition to and easiest to transition out of is market socialism.

    I yell on Lemmy all the time about how the current bourgeoisie are some of the worst creatures ever born, and I am constantly watching news and reading about the vile things the bourgeoisie are capable of

    Yeah, it really really sucks to be ahead of the curve on consciousness. But the thing about societal organization is that it requires you to organize society, which takes generations. Society steers like a cruise ship, not a speedboat. If you're going to become politically invested, you're going to have to come to terms with social inertia and develop the patience to slowly usher in an age you'll probably never see come to fruition.

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  • I mean you can discount the socialists as a part of the left if you want.

    I'm discounting the DSA specifically as a part of the left, with the caveat that this is a minority opinion. While as an anarchist I absolutely disagree with other socialists on a variety of issues, clearly anarchists and non-anarchist socialists are leftists.

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