This is what will lead me to the full change in diet. I'm at the mitigation and small changes phase. I really don't have ethics issues with animals as food (farming & hunting meat isn't bad when suffering is inherent to existence, and to deny this is to deny given order), but we exist in a capitalist hellscape that has zero shame or remorse for exploiting making perverse anything once natural for profit.

Which is why when someone asks me "Well what about indigenous tribes? Almost all of them hunt, are you doing to tell them they're morally wrong?". No, no I am not, because they are not morally wrong. They're hunting for survival, in relative harmony and reciprocity with the ecology that completely enveloped every aspect of their social development.

Right, but that's true for plants as well though

European honey bees are a foreign invasive species

But... I am European?

Mushroom aren't classified as either plants nor animals, with some arguing they're much closer to animals. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian myself, but that'd be an interesting point to consider.

Some areas have a "swam list," where beekeepers put their name on the list and whenever someone in the area finds a swarm on their property they call someone from the swarm list and they come out to get the bees.

It's a lot better than the alternative, which is ignorant property owners spraying the swarm with wasp poison... :(

..........I miss the days when radical statements sounded far off and crazy. Now they just sound like statements of undeniable truth.

I'd say it's defined by the dominant group, but that group isn't necessarily an ethnic group. For example, Sundar Pichai and Jensen Huang are certainly a part of that group. It's not limited to white Anglo-Saxons anymore.

We really need to stop looking at the issue by pigeonholing it into racial, gender, or sexual categories, because that does not reflect the reality. There are gay oligarchs. There are women oligarchs. There are oligarchs of every skin tone.

These are counter-examples, of course; deviations from what we might consider the "norm," which is cishetero white male oligarchs. Pointing out that it's not limited to the latter isn't a denial that the latter form a disproportionate majority of oligarchs. That's the part a lot of people miss when I bring this up.

The fundamental issue though is class disparity, which we cannot lose sight of; even if there are other demographic trends within that disparity. Trying to make it about anything else is overly reductive and harmful.

For example:

HyperNormalisation is a 2016 BBC documentary by British filmmaker Adam Curtis. It argues that following the global economic crises of the 1970s, governments, financiers and technological utopians gave up on trying to shape the complex "real world" and instead established a simpler "fake world" for the benefit of multi-national corporations that is kept stable by neoliberal governments. The film was released on 16 October 2016 on BBC iPlayer.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation

You really are a terrible wish granting device

No. If someone ate no animal products besides honey that doesn't make them not vegan, it means they don't share the opinion that honey causes animal exploitation. I do not wish to register an opinion there, I'm just saying what the rationale is.

I'm actually not a vegetarian. I'm a kangatarian.

Kangaroos have evolved over the past 60,000 years to breed in such numbers that their population can sustain hunting by humans. They have no other natural predators, unless you count parasites. Dingos in some places, but not many. The result is that if humans don't hunt kangaroos, they over-breed. Destroy the local habitat, threatening endangered species, then starve. Some kangaroos must die at human hands for the good of everything else, including the other kangaroos.

So the government uses drone surveys to analyse the population, and then tells people how many kangaroos need to die. Each kangaroo in the quota can either be hunted, or culled. Culled kangaroos will be shot, and their bodies will rot in a ditch. Their meat will benefit nobody. If they're hunted, then at least some good comes of it. If a kangaroo survives the initial shot, hunters will stun and then kill it. I'm unsure whether the same regulations apply to cullers.

So, I eat kangaroo meat. All kangaroo meat is hunted, there's not a single kangaroo farm in the world. At least, not the western idea of a farm. Every kangaroo I eat lived a free life in nature, and then died for the good of the ecosystem. No animal slavery.

And I propose a bigger question than honey: is kangaroo meat vegan?