We don't negotiate with therapists.
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A series of circumstances have made me effectively resistant to CBT, and sadly not the kick-based one. "Talk to yourself as you would to a friend", they say to the dude who has never had any and therefore has no idea of what does that even mean
Ask you doctor if stoicism is right for you.
I saw it as the philosophy of the (wage) slave.
There's a few different 'end states' to stoicism.
Realizing that you have control over your own emotions opens you up to the ability to counter emotional reactions, e.g. despair at being a wage slave. Despair will keep in wage slavery, because there's no way to make it better. Stoicism is ignoring despair. Intellect loads the gun, instinct knows what happens when you pull the trigger, and, by not letting your emotions choose the target, you go for the one that causes the greatest good and next thing you know you're getting picked up at a McDonald's across state lines.
I wish the dead could write - I’m sure they’d make a better argument for checking out than trying stoicism.
Stoicism is just dissociating philosophically
"I am not my feelings and have control of my actions beyond them" is nothing like disassociating
Sorry i was just trying to be funny. Most of these "stoic lone warrior" types do just use it to act tough by repressing emotions though
Oh absolutely, meme stoicism is a wildly different beast from the real thing. The real thing is honestly much closer to CBT than the meme version. It's very "what you say about me says more about you than it says about me, but I should check that you don't have a point about something I should change" rather than "I feel nothing when insulted".
No see you saying CBT and not clarifying which one again threw me for a loop 😂😭
“Talk to yourself as you would to a friend”
I've never heard of this technique. The one CBT technique that I know is labeling your thoughts (according to the type of cognitive distortion) and countering them. If you do it long enough, your thinking is supposed to change. Changing any habit is difficult, though.

I think the idea is that, when you're judging yourself really hard for something you've done, you're asked to consider what you would think of a friend who had done the same thing. A lot of the time people would view the friend as having a made a forgivable mistake, even though they're treating the behavior in themselves as evidence of an irredeemable and permanent character flaw. So it's like, use supportive language when you talk to yourself. Remind yourself of all you've done right and all you've overcome, that sort of thing. Forgive yourself and build yourself up. It's a specific instance of the kind of labeling-and-countering you're talking about.
It's also that what you want out of the friend is not for them to run away or apologize profusely, it's to own up, apologize, and try to be better next time
You could try needles or sounding or a cage. Kicks aren't the only option!
Talk to yourself as you would to a friend
I prefer to be honest with myself. While I don't saddle my friends with my problems.
The point is to be kind to yourself. You should be honest with your friends, but you should make efforts to frame that honesty in a caring and positive light, ensuring them that they're safe with you and that you're raising your concerns out of love for them.
The therapist's point is that most people know to treat they're friends that way, but tend to be much harsher and less generous with themselves. So: cut yourself some slack, is the message.
I’ve always heard talk to your inner child/talk to yourself with the compassion you’d show a child
As someone who grew up constantly criticized, still no idea
How you would treat a child, how your childhood self should have been treated not how you were treated as a kid. If a kid came up to you with your problems what would you say?
Take the criticism for example. Would you not tell the kid some along the lines of "that sucks, bud. Its not really your fault. I've been there and made it through, you can too."
I don't know, wasn't "tough love" supposed to be necessary to prevent kids from growing up too pampered and entitled? At least that's how I used to be treated back in the day, as if any assistance would make me incapable or unwilling to sustain myself (not like that made any difference, I was still unable to pull my own bootstraps and am therefore well behind my peers)
That is the alleged sentiment I suppose, there's a difference between tough and abusive that many parents never really figure out. There's no one type of parenting that is best for all kids. Pulling up by your own bootstraps is a paradoxical statement for a reason.
I had the same issue, and eventually realized we have resources specifically for learning this: I started reading parenting books.
I would recommend "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn as a starting point.
On one hand, good to know there is an answer; on the other, I'm generally priced out of purchasing books, so it's as good as being forbidden from learning the answer (unless I find a summary online).
wait what? isnt... being self-aware a good thing?... pleasure to have in class? i have got to beissing something here.
Self-awareness is a good thing, but it’s also the bottom of the barrel when fishing for compliments. In therapy, specifically, the implied sentiment is, “Well, at least you know how fucked up you are.”
She’s making the comparison to the “pleasure to have in class” line, because it’s similar. If a teacher genuinely has good things to say about a student, it’s probably going to be more specific (i.e. – they were inquisitive, a quick study, made their peers laugh, etc). “Pleasure to have in class,” by contrast, is a generic compliment that doesn’t really say anything.
EDIT: Okay, so based on a few of the latest responses, I felt that I should clarify something. I don’t think people who use these phrases intend for them to be insults or demeaning in any way—this includes Cait’s therapist in the original post. It’s just that it can be perceived that way, which is what I think the post was making fun of.
If you’re also an introspective, self-critical person, please don’t take someone saying this to you as an affirmation of your faults. It’s almost certainly an innocuous and genuine observation.
but it’s also the bottom of the barrel when fishing for compliments.
I can see that you have good intentions...
Really, though, there is no bottom of the barrel. Self-awareness is something that some people in therapy genuinely lack. Good intentions are something that some people genuinely lack. Kindness is something that someone people genuinely lack. Being capable of being unobtrusive for others is something some people genuinely lack.
These are not the bottom of the barrel, but solid foundations you can build from. Someone with good self-awareness can give constructive feedback both in session and irl. Someone with good intentions will actually try to improve rather than use therapy as a place to vent. Someone who is kind will use the skills and motivation they gain in therapy to build a nice community for themselves because it is reciprocal.
Imagine OOP except without self-awareness. Their subconscious has developed countertools that make therapy ineffective but they are not able to describe those countertools or even know their functioning. All they can say is that the therapy doesn't work. That sucks so much worse than the situation OOP is actually in.
Oh my god I literally just now got why my therapist kept saying that. I hate people do this and then expect me to get it. Especially therapists they should know better. If you try to sugarcoat it I won't get it almost guaranteed. Fucks sake what a waste of a time she was. Should have known something was up with how defensive about Israel she was...
I don’t think your therapists necessarily meant it in an insulting way.
… with how defensive about Israel she was…
Oh. Yeah, time for a new therapist, then. Can’t expect healthcare professionals to share all of your political beliefs, but not simping for genocidal ethnostates is a pretty low bar.
not simping for genocidal ethnostates is a pretty low bar.
A therapist should keep that shit to themselves, regardless of what their political beliefs are. My psychiatrist is a Catholic, but if he started telling me that I should go to church I'd be looking for a new psychiatrist.
Oh this was years ago I wasn't good at saying no to people and standing up for myself. Also kept believing what others said over what I thought since my memory is bad and I zone out a lot.
Should have known something was up with how defensive about Israel she was…
Holy shit, your therapist should not be debating politics with you! That's right up there with your therapist trying to convert you to their religion or praying with you. That's a line that shouldn't be crossed.
I don't the only that's necessarily what your therapist was getting at.
I'm not defending her stance on Israel btw. Also her stance on Israel might imply religious beliefs and that's a whole other conversation.
However, I disagree with the commenter that said self-awareness is a good thing.
If you want to go through life empowering others, avoiding doing any harm of any kind, and leaving the world somehow better for your existence, then yes self awareness is a good thing.
However, if you want to be happy, satisfied, and go through life being comfortable and not require therapy, then self awareness is most definitely not a good thing.
That is to say, self awareness is highly correlated with anxiety and depression.
That is to say, self awareness is highly correlated with anxiety and depression.
Curse you, autistic introspection!
However, if you want to be happy, satisfied, and go through life being comfortable and not require therapy, then self awareness is most definitely not a good thing.
I have to disagree. Self-awareness made me feel better about myself, not worse.
You know what requires therapy? Having a gnawing sense that you're a failure or a coward or something like that. That's what a lack of self-awareness will get you. That is to say, you're going to have some opinion about yourself no matter what, and without self-awareness it's going to be a distorted one.
I can't handle the idea of paying someone like that even a single time, I'd feel so ripped off and violated.
It can be, though quite often anxiety can manifest as being too self-aware all the time, to the point that it's getting in the way of actually enjoying life.
aaaaah yes fair i can see that, sounds a smol bit like me but bit more negative... good to know.
It's also worth pointing out, I think, that if you're only aware of your weaknesses and such, but don't/can't recognize your strengths, then you're not really that self-aware
I feel that's kind of getting into gate-keeping territory. Self-awareness imo just requires a person to be aware of themself, and whether that person is self-critical or self-appreciating is a different analysis of that awareness.
I'd argue self-appreciation and self-deprication can both get in the way of self-awareness. Someone experiencing clinically significant grandiosity is likely lacking in self awareness just as someone experiencing clinically significant negative self talk (i.e., cognitive distortion) is likely lacking in self awareness
This seems to come down to a difference in definition. You are viewing self-awareness as only able to be positive, and having an implied lack of bias.
I don't expect either of those, I just view it as someone thinking about how they think or act, regardless of whether bias exists in that process. It's all self-awareness.
You are viewing self-awareness as only able to be positive and having an implied lack of bias.
I am not at all viewing it as only able to be positive; it should be accurate. Why call it awareness if it's not reflecting reality?
I just view it as someone thinking about how they think or act, regardless of whether bias exists in that process. It's all self-awareness.
That's not self awareness, that's meta cognition
Metacognition is a sub-portion of self-awareness that does not look at behavior. They're intrinsically tied to one another, but self-awareness is broader than metacognition.
I'm not saying either of our definitions are incorrect - 'self-awareness' changes meaning somewhat depending on whether it's being used philosophically, psychoanalitically, etc. And the fact it's now used by the general public its meaning naturally shifts. I am saying your definition is more exclusionary, though, treating it more as a virtue to strive for rather than just an action one takes.
Functionally, if the only self-awareness is accurate self-awareness, then it can only be an advantage, and thus positive.
I would also argue that awareness does not need to be reflective of reality - you can be aware of hallucinations you are experiencing, or you can be aware that you are experiencing hallucinations. Both are awareness, but only one is more accurate to reality.
Metacognition is a sub-portion of self-awareness that does not look at behavior.
That's fair, I glossed over the "act" part of your statement
'self-awareness' changes meaning somewhat depending on whether it's being used philosophically, psychoanalitically, etc... I am saying your definition is more exclusionary, though, treating it more as a virtue to strive for rather than just an action one takes.
Also fair, but the context here is it being used as a compliment from a therapist
Functionally, if the only self-awareness is accurate self-awareness, then it can only be an advantage, and thus positive.
Ah I see, I misunderstood what you meant by positive; I thought you were referring to the bit about being aware of your strengths.
I do think exclusively accurate self-awareness can absolutely be a disadvantage though.
I would also argue that awareness does not need to be reflective of reality - you can be aware of hallucinations you are experiencing, or you can be aware that you are experiencing hallucinations.
Mm- I think I agree semantically, like technically it can mean that, but it's pretty confusing. Consider how the session note looks when written each way:
Client reported experiencing auditory perception in the absence of external stimuli.
vs
Client reported awareness of auditory perception in the absence of external stimuli
The latter, to me, sounds self contradictory
Alright I think we're about on the same page now. It's more how we are perceiving the compliment by the therapist.
Like, yes, self-awareness in itself is important for self-improvement, and some folks completely lack the habits of introspection and self-analysis, so at least having self-awareness is good. I would say that it's more a first step, though, a skill that can be leveraged for improvement.
I've previously had a similar conversation with one of my former therapists where he commented on my self-awareness, but did later talk to me about my anxiety and self-conciousness being from that self-awareness. Essentially, focusing on how I'm acting and thinking, and making too harsh of judgements on minor mistakes or inconsequential failings.
That's apart of why I don't view self-awareness as the state of being accurately dialed in about yourself yet, but instead just in the habit of noting your thoughts and behaviours, regardless of whether you've actually figured out your biases or not yet.
"You're very self-aware" is basically a meme in the corners of the internet that discuss trauma. It's a genuine compliment on the part of the therapist, but also an implied admission that they won't be able to help you.
You're already aware of the observations they would make and the tools they would propose, so you might as well skip to the end and look for another therapist.
Is there actual evidence that CBT actually works? It's always thrown out there as something that helps, but it doesn't. It doesn't work.
Is there actual evidence that CBT actually works?
Yes! In fact, that's its biggest selling point. It's an evidence-based therapy.
It depends if you're really into it. Personally I don't like my testicles being hurt.
My understanding is that it’s the best method we have at the moment, but might still be ineffective for as much as half of all patients who undergo it.
So, yeah, it kind of sucks, but no other intervention has a better body of evidence behind it. Our understanding of mental illness is unfortunately just very limited.
I seem to recall that, consistently, the quality of the therapeutic relationship is the most important factor for improvement. In other words, get a therapist you like rather than one specialized in a certain branch of therapy 🤷♀️
Just go on google scholar, type in "CBT meta analysis" and read the results
Google Scholar is scholar.google.com.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C44&q=CBT+meta-analysis
Sorry, I'm convinced meta analyses are garbage written by the least capable academics. They create yet another "study" that supports X or Y position without testing anything at all--that outsiders use to further an X or Y agenda. More meta-studies based off other meta-studies! It's mountains of useless bullshit.
For example, a more recent meta-analysis by Wykes and colleagues (2008) examined controlled trials of CBT for schizophrenia and confirmed findings from previous meta-analyses (e.g., Gould et al., 2001; Rector & Beck, 2001), suggesting that CBT had a small to medium effect size as compared to control conditions on both positive and negative symptoms.
How brain-rotted do you have to be to think this says anything? "We reread the articles and they still say the same thing... because... they're written." Maybe we should perform another meta-analysis on the same articles! Third time's the charm!
The underlying papers are of no use at all:
CBT for depression was more effective than control conditions such as waiting list or no treatment
Like holy shit, really? This is your foundation of evidence that CBT works? Just look at the proponents of CBT--it's a magical, effective treatment for everything under the sun! I can't take it seriously, especially when it's pushed as being as effective as medications.
I had some blood work done and it indicated that I would likely have a negative or poor response to an antidepressant I'd been taking for nearly a year. I'd tell the doctors that it does absolutely nothing, but they kept increasing the dose and insisted it would do something positive. It never did. These are the same disinterested, bullshit doctors that would tell you to engage in CBT.
All the therapists would gaslight you into believing it's all your fault: just think your way out of it. Fucking bullshit. Absolute puerile bullshit.
The reality is I suffer from something that has a genetic component to it: crippling depression that runs in the maternal family. No. Talk therapy doesn't do shit. No. CBT doesn't do shit. Appropriate drugs actually work and I'm now in a so much better place after living my whole life with crippling depression, anxiety and panic attacks. I finally feel able to live a normal life. Do you know how much money and time I've wasted on talk-therapists? They're not doctors. They're complete time-wasters. They should be banned as I'm convinced they perpetuate harm.
Even proponents of talk-therapy have that fundamental caveat that absolves them of everything: it could take years before you see any results. It's all con-artists selling snake-oil. Psychology is such a bull shit field.
Meta analysis is actually the best class of scientific evidence. A meta analysis looks at the totality of research on the subject. Because any single study can yield different results, scientists need to do many studies. Certainty in science comes from replication. If repeated studies show the same results, those results become more certain. If a new meta analysis confirms the result of an old meta analysis, it shows the results are likely to be accurate.
The new meta analysis included newer research. That conclusion is saying that the newer studies match the results of the old ones. That's how science works. Nothing can be certain unless its replicable. Most science is like this. Papers are written by scientists for other scientists. Meta analysis from every field are exactly like this.
But any study like these looking for the general case. This analysis is making limited claims with strong certainty. This study is saying that, with a great deal of certainty, CBT has a small to medium effect on most people, but not all of those who get it.
There are many problems in medicine. You have encountered many of them.
Its clear CBT didn't work for you, but that in no way means that the science is wrong, or that meta analysis, as a concept, are bad science.
The drugs that you are taking were studied in exactly the same way. There are analycies and meta analycies on their effects that will sound just as pointlessly reduntant as the one you looked at. That is the process.
How about this?
Method: Thirty-four CBTp trials with data in the public domain were used as source data for a meta-analysis and investigation of the effects of trial methodology using the Clinical Trial Assessment Measure (CTAM).
Results: There were overall beneficial effects for the target symptom (33 studies; effect size = 0.400 [95% confidence interval [CI] = 0.252, 0.548]) as well as significant effects for positive symptoms (32 studies), negative symptoms (23 studies), functioning (15 studies), mood (13 studies), and social anxiety (2 studies) with effects ranging from 0.35 to 0.44. However, there was no effect on hopelessness. Improvements in one domain were correlated with improvements in others. Trials in which raters were aware of group allocation had an inflated effect size of approximately 50%-100%. But rigorous CBTp studies showed benefit (estimated effect size = 0.223; 95% CI = 0.017, 0.428) although the lower end of the CI should be noted. Secondary outcomes (eg, negative symptoms) were also affected such that in the group of methodologically adequate studies the effect sizes were not significant.
This is the “Wykes and colleagues (2008)” cited in the first sentence. The only reason your example paragraph sounds like that is because everything it wants to say has indeed already been written.
Sadly this is all medicine, I lost so much faith in it as soon as it wasn't "extremely obvious problem with extremely obvious solution." For the brain, it's a much worse situation because we understand it so little. It turns into "throw random ideas at it and hope one works" and a lot of people are just lonely or needed lifestyle changes so it "works" for them :/
I agree with a lot of what you say, especially being forced into an "evidence" based system, I was like, who's evidence? Because I can surface studies that show things you don't support work, but anyway.
Ive gotten help from a talk therapist, she saved my life, but according to the healthcare system where I live now, there's no evidence it helps and I can go fuck myself.
That’s why meta-analyses are so important. They look at every attempt at studying said thing and see whether it worked significantly more times than it didn’t, and why people don’t just cite a single study as conclusive evidence.
Therapy will not fix anything if you're unwilling to make the effort to change.
At this point, if you still lack motivation, maybe it's time to go the medication route. It helped me overcome the inertia.
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