Crossposted from https://fedia.io/m/technology@beehaw.org/t/4224376

TL;DR: In the last year, the Wikimedia Foundation has fired several union organizers, including those that worked on the Community Tech team - a team dedicated to building features for the volunteer community that edits Wikipedia. As the Wiki Workers Union tries to get the Wikimedia Foundation to recognize their union, it is worth remembering that this is not the first time that the Foundation has worked against the community. Wikimedia Enterprise is a betrayal of the volunteer movement community of Wikipedia editors, as the Wikimedia Foundation is providing privileged access to big tech AI companies to the Wikipedia corpus - a body of work that the Foundation does not own. Movement volunteer communities contributed to Wikipedia under copyleft licenses - licenses that work to ensure that the work remains free (as in speech). The big tech AI companies do not license derivative works under copyleft licenses and often do not even attribute where the works came from. This means that volunteers are working for big tech for free, and the Wikimedia Foundation is selling privileged access to that free labor. It is against that backdrop that the current unionization struggle unfolds.

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[–] 22 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Why does everything, and I mean everything, have to be terrible now

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Capitalism ran out of easy exploitable profits, and now it is coming for whatever is left.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Also technological innovation kinda halted in the recent years. That's why you see everything being filled with unnecessary AI in the name of technological advancement. If there's no innovation for growth, all that remains is to extract more value from existing platforms, hence the current enshittification of everything.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    We are a species that seeks unexploited niches for resource optimization. In the past those resources were things that made us directly happy like food and shelter but now we’ve moved on to more abstract concepts like “wealth”. That drive and ability to abstract and outthink our competitors is how we got to the top of the food chain on this planet.

    There is no off switch.

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  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago

    Amazing that Wikipedia has crapped the bed despite holding out against forces trying to break or corrupt it...

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  • [–] 35 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

    Same for openstreetmap. Volunteers provide and add the data and the osm guys built their own companies and sell the derivative work. osm is even worse than wikimedia. At least wikimedia is officially non profit.

    It's our own fault that it doesn't use a free license like GPL. Derivative work should be released under the same license. You can make money, but contribute back.

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    OSM doesn't require you to open derivative works, though - they just require attribution. Kind of a different situation.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I've contributed to open projects that required attribution before. None of it's ever been attributed.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    You're attributed as long as the downstream intermediaries and users/developers provide some traceable reference to your original work. Even your package's name in their dependency manifest can serve that purpose. Anyone who wants to know the original source has a way to find trace it back to you. Some projects like SPDX can largely automate it too. It can spit out the entire dependency tree, their authors and even licence compatibility information from the data.

    Whenever I use some information that requires attribution, like discussions on stackoverflow, I leave the reference links in the comments in my source code. But I rarely use their code. I learn their approach. So I'm technically not required to attribute. But that's still the honorable thing to do.

    Needles to say, AI stays true to the nature of those who peddle it. They don't like attribution and they completely strip it.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago

    It's what always happens. People never learn. Discogs, crowdsec, google maps, all of the things that have ever benefitted from crowd sourcing inevitably end up locking up the information and it becomes polluted with junk when they have to start using poorly sourced and moderated commercial data.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Wait... Didn't Wikipedia ban AI shit a while back? What the fuck?

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  • [–] [S] 29 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    They did, but that was for contributions. They still sold access to the encyclopedia to big tech so they could train on it to create slop (in violation of the licenses that Wikipedia is licensed under).

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Realistically how were they going to stop them? I mean, practically speaking.

    They offer the entire thing free to download and no slop company has ever hesitated to steal literary work from actual publishing companies and authors that are currently suing them.

    Seems to me like their options were get paid or not get paid.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    Potentially, this is not about stopping them. Can Wikimedia provide this copyleft-licensed data to AI companies when it knows they will ingest it and reproduce it without any copyleft? Lawfully? Morally? Maybe the act itself legitimizes the transformation into non-copyleft form?

    If the authors, the contributors to Wikipedia, feel like their work is being stolen, the managing org should not sell and benefit from these acts but at the very least stay neutral or represent and act upon their contributor's values.

    I don't know how they all feel about it, but the article makes a valid argument saying that copyleft is not retained. And the org actively participating in these activities with the other context provided by the article, it seems malicious/toxic/high discrepancy to the community values.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Wikipedia is just… facts. The Wikimedia Foundation collected and collated those facts using unpaid community members funded in large part by charitable donations over the course of decades. Arguably they have even less right to withhold access to the data they’ve been entrusted with than anyone else in this situation considering the other parties are private entities.

    I understand the desire to label anyone supporting the beast that is these AI companies as complicit… but let’s try not to cut off our noses to spite our collective face. It’s not the librarian’s job to make morality decisions about who’s checking out the books, it’s their job to distribute the knowledge and keep the library open.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    I guess holding an offline copy is becoming more attractive by the day.

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  • 24 comments in c/wikipedia@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    Seems like openly socialist projects are now the only ones worth donating to.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    We have withdrawn our support.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    I'm not donating this year or ever again. I downloaded the whole thing in 2020 when the writing was on the wall, that'll have to do.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I prefer the alternate reality that matches how I read that headline.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Wikipedia turned its volunteers on, and now its cumming for its workers...?

    What is the alternative reading lol, my brain couldnt see it

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    Power always corrupts.

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  • [+] 22 points 3 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Support people you know. Support people in your community. Even when they have their issues you can help to them to help get them back on the right track- we don't have the power to positively impact those who have harmful ideology when we aren't in community with them

    The human beings around you could always use your support. If you don't know where to start, start introducing yourself to your neighbors. Either when you see them out and about, or go knock on some doors.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    There definitely needs to be more awareness of the union issues, but the Enterprise part of the post body is quite misguided.

    Wikimedia Enterprise is a betrayal of the volunteer movement community of Wikipedia editors, as the Wikimedia Foundation is providing privileged access to big tech AI companies to the Wikipedia corpus

    This omits how scrapers and crawlers would have been getting the corpus for free without that, profiteering and clogging up the tubes that bring you Wikipedia and tons of amazing applications that rely on it. API access is extraordinarily free and public! I’d rather Google pay for it so they don’t slow down literally everybody else. I for one am glad I don’t need to Anubis every 12h to access something as essential as Wikipedia. The community broadly supports Wikimedia Enterprise too.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 months ago (8 children)

    This omits how scrapers and crawlers would have been getting the corpus for free without that, profiteering and clogging up the tubes that bring you Wikipedia and tons of amazing applications that rely on it.

    I didn't know that I had to preemptively defend the Foundation.

    The reason I don't think that that is particularly relevant is because these companies are violating the license that Wikimedia projects are distributed under. WMF has $296M in reserves. They couldn't send a Cease and Desist for the server load?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (7 children)

    They couldn't send a Cease and Desist for the server load?

    1. Send one to whom? A WHOIS of the Brazilian IP that turns out to be a residential proxy? Anonymous scraping for LLMs is a problem all over the Internet without a solution (save Anubis). There's a reason all the big companies have went for Cloudflare instead of any lawsuits, which you'd hear in the news.
    2. Google has always been correctly attributing Wikipedia content in their info cards before the rise of LLMs and Wikimedia Enterprise has always been made for that purpose. With how much they impact the server load while also being a big driver a traffic, Google clearly needed to be moved off the public infrastructure but it would also be unreasonable to shut them off and starve the site off a big source of contributors. Paying for better service beyond reasonable, individual, volunteer use has been common practice since Red Hat and commercial support, and now Tidelift. See also Grafana and the OpenStreetMap ecosystem.
    3. They're not even sure if they have the standing; they've looked at that question:

    Overall, it is more likely than not if current precedent holds that training systems on copyrighted data will be covered by fair use in the United States, but there is significant uncertainty at time of writing.

    —https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikilegal/Copyright_Analysis_of_ChatGPT

    I didn't know that I had to preemptively defend the Foundation.

    well you shouldn't either. I am simply representing the perspective of contributors as a signatory myself, and as a developer who makes API calls to Wikipedia. "Our content is always free to use, but our infrastructure is not" sums it up nicely and Wikimedia Enterprise keeps the free infrastructure good.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 months ago (6 children)

    Send one to whom? A WHOIS of the Brazilian IP that turns out to be a residential proxy? Anonymous scraping for LLMs is a problem all over the Internet without a solution (save Anubis). There's a reason all the big companies have went for Cloudflare instead of any lawsuits, which you'd hear in the news.

    I know individuals that have been unmasked in torrent swarms and have had their ISP cancel their service due to that. The idea that Wikimedia's hands are powerless to send a Cease and Desist to ISPs to warn and ban their customers for scraping is hilarious.

    Again, they have $296M in reserves. WMF can send a letter.

    They're not even sure if they have the standing; they've looked at that question

    But that isn't what you linked to says; the word standing doesn't appear in the text, nor do they seem to explore that. Thanks for the reference, but it doesn't actually support your argument.

    I am simply representing the perspective of contributors as a signatory myself, and as a developer who makes API calls to Wikipedia. "Our content is always free to use, but our infrastructure is not" sums it up nicely and Wikimedia Enterprise keeps the free infrastructure good.

    As I responded to another commenter:

    I also don't know how much pointing out that this access has been granted for other users matters - the current CEO very clearly states that this was built to support the scraping use cases; Wikimedia knows that the scrapers are violating the licenses with every derivative work created not licensed reciprocally, and designed the feature to make that happen faster.

    Enabling non-violating use cases don't erase the violating ones.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (5 children)

    individuals that have been unmasked in torrent swarms

    WMF isn't Nintendo or Hatchette; you need way more than $296M to pursue all that, not to mention $200M of that is the standard practice of keeping a 12 months' rain fund in case something massive happens to current revenue.

    But that isn't what you linked to says; the word standing doesn't appear in the text

    "Standing" means you have been harmed by an illegal act. You need standing to cease and desist or sue. To have legal standing for a letter, what you're asking to cease and desist needs to be illegal. What I linked to is that WMF counsel believes LLMs likely do not violate the content licenses of their training data. Thus, there is no legal injury and no standing.

    Wikimedia knows that the scrapers are violating the licenses with every derivative work created not licensed reciprocally

    see what I quoted. If we go by ethics (which I do prefer) instead of the law, we know that these violations exploiting the commons are going to happen regardless of whether Enterprise exists—in fact, they have been happening despite Enterprise (although at a reduced rate) to the point where rate limits have been enacted for the first time in history—so they might as well make the exploiters pay for it to help maintain the commons' infrastructure.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 months ago (4 children)

    To have legal standing for a letter, what you're asking to cease and desist needs to be illegal.

    FWIW, that isn't true - I didn't post the letter, but I got a C&D from SoFi for this post. Clearly I had done nothing illegal.

    WMF isn't Nintendo or Hatchette; you need way more than $296M to pursue all that, not to mention $200M of that is the standard practice of keeping a 12 months' rain fund in case something massive happens to current revenue.

    They can't defend the contributors, but they can hire a union busting law firm to keep their staff in check. Got it.

    we know that these violations exploiting the commons are going to happen regardless of whether Enterprise exists

    We don't know that because WMF hasn't bothered to try defending contributors. Instead, they created a glide path for the pirates taking advantage of them.

    so they might as well make the exploiters pay for it to help maintain the commons' infrastructure.

    I think it is interesting you say that WMF is being "exploited" yet you believe that they don't have any standing for the damages they have experienced.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    As I said, laws and ethics often get to different conclusions. They don't have legal standing because there was no legal wrong, even if it is ethically abject.

    if a C&D doesn't accuse you of anything illegal, then it absolutely cannot compel you under any circumstance:

    A cease and desist letter puts a person or business on notice that they're engaging in an activity that violates your rights, and if they don't stop, you'll pursue legal action.

    In addition to saving time and money, a cease and desist letter is a good way to track communications you've sent to the other side. Sending a letter provides evidence that the party had notice of the wrongful behavior but continued to engage in it.

    —https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-is-a-cease-and-desist-letter.html

    Since Van Buren v. United States, scraping no longer falls under the powerful CFAA enforcement, and (I hope) the United States can no longer prosecute Aaron Swartz and seek seven years' bars for scraping.

    but they can hire a union busting law firm

    Yeah that is absolutely horrible behavior; I agree with you entirely on the union parts which more people should know. (My post highlighting the hiring here has received surprisingly little attention, so I'm glad yours blew up.)

    However, that's only at least $100k and at most a million, and to pursue a single entity. Mass-identifying ISPs from swarms of traffic-you-also-have-to-identify to which you write a letter each like Nintendo does with torrent swarms requires a lot more. It's much easier and economical to simply put a rate limit on it and creating paid access on an isolated stack.

    hasn't bothered to try

    Very false. Bot detection and blocking efforts have always been pretty documented (e.g. https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_Platform/Data_Lake/Data_Issues/2026-06-10_Nov_2025_spike_in_bot_traffic , https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/board/5462/?filter=ve98KgxXcKmC , https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_Platform/Data_Lake/Traffic/Bot_detection). They have only intensified since 2022 (https://diff.wikimedia.org/2026/03/26/quo-vadis-crawlers-progress-and-whats-next-on-safeguarding-our-infrastructure/image-1919/). Last year, they spent "~600–700 SRE FTE-hours" on reactive scraper defense by hand ("firefighting").

    Instead, they created a glide path for the pirates taking advantage of them.

    Before Wikimedia Enterprise it was way easier. Again, API Access was, until very recently, unlimited and free. I'm not sure how Enterprise is the glide path here.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    if a C&D doesn't accuse you of anything illegal, then it absolutely cannot compel you under any circumstance:

    This doesn't have to mean criminal penalties. If WMF simply tells the scrapers that they are no longer authorized to access their systems, they can litigate against companies who continue to breach their request to discontinue scraping. That can be a civil action.

    I can't imagine that Wikimedia is somehow required to feed the LLMs, and that they cannot simply request that they stop. You and I may not get a lot of traction there, but $263M definitely ought to make it possible to hire a lawyer to defend against (now) unauthorized access.

    We don't know that because WMF hasn't bothered to try defending contributors.

    Very false. Bot detection and blocking efforts have always been pretty documented

    I don't see how bot detection shows that WMF is trying to defend contributors' IP.

    Instead, they created a glide path for the pirates taking advantage of them.

    Before Wikimedia Enterprise it was way easier. Again, API Access was, until very recently, unlimited and free. I'm not sure how Enterprise is the glide path here.

    Before Wikimedia Enterprise they weren't getting paid and the LLM companies may have had to depend on residential proxies -- if the bot detection you mention was successful, for example. The glide path allows Enterprise customers to not experience rate limits or rely on shoddy infrastructure. Clearly, it's better to not be in the shadows, if you are trying to evade detection.

    PS: Were they using the API or were they scraping? If they were using the API, why couldn't WMF just revoke their keys?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Fair point on using ToS.

    Before Wikimedia Enterprise they weren't getting paid and the LLM companies may have had to depend on residential proxies

    It is extremely cheap to rely on residential proxies and certainly magnitudes cheaper than Enterprise. The free infrastructure is absolutely not shoddy and I'm not sure why you think it is, though making all scrapers use it would probably make it shoddy.

    If they were using the API, why couldn't WMF just revoke their keys?

    The API has no keys. It's commons public access. If you want to revoke access, you'd have to identify the IPs and manually block them.

    You're also still assuming this is violating intellectual property. Customers of Wikimedia Enterprise are forced to sign Terms of Use (accessible at https://dashboard.enterprise.wikimedia.com/signup/) that legally bind them to respect the license of the content even though, as you point out, they are already bound to respect the license. To maintain access to Enterprise, you must not violate that license, and with that the WMF can send DMCA C&Ds.

    Since Enterprise does have API keys, it in fact gives WMF control over exploitation of it enforceable in the way you mention. Enterprise is what defends our copyright.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I stopped my monthly donation.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago
    9 comments in c/fuck_ai@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 39 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    It is worth remembering that the company that fired these 7 workers is ++sitting on $296 million++ in reserves, and that the encyclopedia that they manage is entirely written by volunteers for free. Wikimedia isn’t spending anything to pay people who produce the work that they are fund-raising on, and what they are selling access to. In fact, in the last fiscal year, ++Wikimedia Enterprise++ - the team that provides high speed, high volume access to AI companies - just turned profitable on $8.3 million in revenue.

    i suddenly dont feel so bad for never donating when they pull out the tin cup.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    I have a deep respect for the Wikimedia Foundation but this looks like a pattern of behaviour form them. are there any alternatives worth looking into?

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I honestly think this is a psy-op by Musk who has been actively trying to destroy Wikipedia for years, especially with his shitty Grokpedia

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    But also could be AI psychosis of the leadership. Humans are irrational creatures, and some of us really like to cling to tech. A lot of people grew up with the dreams of having their own KITT, JARVIS, HAL9000, or whatever talking computers were promised by sci-fi, and many of them won't give up until they die. Could be the same for Jimmy Wales.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Maybe Wikipedia should be copied safe somewhere before it collapses?

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  • 4 comments in c/aboringdystopia@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 24 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Despite all the legitimate criticism, we should still be wary of powerful interest groups that want to discredit Wikipedia as a whole... and these groups are currently gaining the upper hand. I therefore think we should be careful not to parrot every criticism unquestioningly and write off or demonize the entire project. Because that is exactly what Trump, Musk, and all the other narcissistic, right-wing oligarchs have been hoping for for decades.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    Yeah, OP isn't one of the handful of accounts that just shit on Wikipedia though.

    They posted their own blog, and talk about other stuff.

    Like, it's not outright misinformation, and there are some good points in there.

    But my kneejerk reaction to anyone critical of Wikipedia, is that they've fallen for propaganda due to how much the oligarchs hate that they can't control Wikipedia.

    That doesn't mean that we don't have to be vigilant, because it is entirely possible that one day Wikipedia starts being shit. I don't think we're anywhere near that point though.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    If they want the support of the People then they need to recognize and work with the unions to ensure the workers who make and maintain the encyclopedia are able to live a life free of employment anxiety.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Of course, union-busting is completely unacceptable and is rightly condemned.

    My comment was more of a general warning against—despite all the justified criticism—allowing ourselves to be divided and discrediting Wikipedia as a project.

    If we look at how the right wing influences the world, this is exactly how it works: Instead of working from the outside to destroy an institution or movement, they use the media power they’ve bought up over time to deepen existing internal tensions and further polarize the situation.

    That’s very likely not the case with this blog, but I wouldn’t be surprised if actors from the far-right were to seize on this issue to discredit Wikipedia and Wikimedia as a whole. If the project were to end, it would ultimately do far more harm to us as a general public than the problematic handling of workers’ rights… especially in these times, when there are enough fascists for whom Wikipedia is a thorn in their side.

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  • 2 comments in c/unions@sh.itjust.works view that post
    [–] 15 points 3 months ago

    Basically, there are no good guys left anymore. They were either killed, usurped, or they had to change to survive. Our current system does not allow for such deviations at all, and never will.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago

    Sounds like they need to be sued for violating the copyleft licenses.

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