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[–] 229 points 3 months ago (9 children)

I predict the first kid to get pepper-sprayed will be Black.

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  • [–] 40 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

    Aren't most shooters actually white? That was my impression.
    Now I am going to Google this. Hello rabbit hole!
    Edit: yep it is a white hobby.
    (Btw I got the joke- just sayin)

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  • [–] 145 points 3 months ago (30 children)

    Anything but regulate guns, making mental health ressources more accessible or punish bullying.

    This normalizes policing by machines, controlled by faceless people who will be shielded against consequences just like cops are shielded now. Drones don't have a face, a name or an personell number. If something happens (and it will), you can't even point your finger on the guilty party anymore. It also shields those controllers from any social backlash they would get if they would hurt someone in person.

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  • [–] 75 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Schools are the obvious places to test/enact these types of changes too.

    Kids don't know to speak out against remote policing via robotics, and normalising it now gets them used to it's wider use in society later.

    It's much easier to raise a generation under a new set of standards, than it is to make an existing generation accept a new normal.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 months ago (27 children)

    regulate guns

    Yeahhhhh I'm not super stoked about the government regulating guns. Like I'm absolutely not a "guns in schools" kinda guy, but governments regulating guns just makes the proletariat and individual workers easier to oppress.

    punish bullying

    Bullying should absolutely not be tolerated but IMO the emphasis should be on restoration and justice instead of punishment IMO.

    If something happens (and it will), you can't even point your finger on the guilty party anymore.

    Sure you can: whoever controlled the drone. If it's autonomous, whoever owns the drone. If the operator or owner is being hidden, it is whoever or whatever system is enabling the hiding.

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  • [–] 47 points 3 months ago (21 children)

    The US has guns and they're being oppressed just fine.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (14 children)

    Because there's no political or popular will to do anything about it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink; that doesn't mean water is useless.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    Seems to me that it does in fact mean that that excuse for gun proliferation is pretty useless.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (7 children)

    Well that's one hell of a non-sequitur. To make a sweeping generalization, it's not the guns' fault that Americans are cowards.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    A majority of US gun owners like what the government is doing, how does that make them cowards?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (5 children)

    I'm talking about Americans that don't like what the government is doing (there's a lot to criticise the American right for, but unwilling to act they are not). There's plenty of gun ownership among American liberals.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    So they are supposed to kill the majority of Americans who have guns that like what the government is doing?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    The majority of Americans do not like what the government is doing, as seen from its approval rating, but also armed revolution usually doesn't happen by killing away everyone who disagrees with you.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

    The majority of Americans with guns do like what the government is doing though. Gun ownership is well over double for Republicans and they currently strongly support ICE and many other abusive domestic policies.

    Please point out an armed revolution that wasn't just wealthy people using humans as pawns in their struggle for control. I can name only one and that was Haiti.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

    The majority of Americans with guns do like what the government is doing though. Gun ownership is well over double for Republicans and they currently strongly support ICE and many other abusive domestic policies.

    Uh... therefore?

    Please point out an armed revolution that wasn't just wealthy people using humans as pawns in their struggle for control.

    I'm not sure how that's relevant here. Most revolutions tend to be about wealthy people using humans as pawns in their struggle for control, but also: Yemen, Syria, Iran, Cuba, Russia, China, Mexico, Ireland*2, decolonization in general. There's also two Frances (1830, 1848) but those are more iffy.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    I was just restating what I said already for clarification since that is what we were discussing.

    When people talk armed revolution the track record is pretty much shit for human rights. Mythological thinking that an armed rebellion is going to solve our problem is problematic to say the least.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    So then it's not the guns that make resistance possible it's popular will.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    I mean obviously, but with popular will you'll want everything to give your cause an edge—hence the guns. It's possible to have popular will and still fail, so factors that give the rebellion (or just plain old resistance, see: Black Panthers) an edge are going to be necessary. In recent history, the Houthis definitely benefited from having guns when they rebelled against the then-government.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    There's something very wrong with your water. It's killing a lot of children.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

    Yeah because the vast majority of the proletariat here are white people who tolerate capitalism because it uses white supremacy and its white privilege to buy their complicity. Same is true for various other bigotries. If we nipped that shit in the bud and developed class consciousness, a revolution would take like three seconds.

    Like having a heavily armed populace is literally the only good thing about AmeriKKKa

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What is that heavily armed populace doing? They're not resisting a government that has entered the information warfare age, where every police station has SWAT gear and tanks and helicopters. The guns aren't saving you from the government, they're not saving me from the government, they're not saving Cletus on 10 acre compound if Uncle Sam decides to pay a visit with flashbangs and riot gear.

    All the guns are doing is terrifying minorities, who actually can be controlled by them.

    Guess how I know.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    They're not resisting a government that has entered the information warfare age, where every police station has SWAT gear and tanks and helicopters.

    Except heavily armed populaces have resisted SWAT gear and tanks and helicopters before, but also: Even just forcing escalation to such methods is a win for the rebels/resistance/etc. There's a reason even oppressive governments don't jump straight to tanks and helicopters when they have a revolution that hasn't quite devolved into civil war. Besides, there's no guarantee the people manning the tanks and helicopters are going to be willing to fire into crowds. In a revolutionary scenario the government's grip on its armed forces tends to be shaky at best, and doing things like whipping out tanks to put down rebellion tends to alienate people who might've supported it otherwise. Hell, sometimes governments just give up instead of going through all this. Obviously armed revolution (which doesn't necessarily mean civil war) isn't foolproof, but the hurdle to winning isn't as big as people around here seem to think, since the very fact that such a thing is happening means there's a sympathetic cause that will make some fraction of the army/police/etc not want to fight.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Bullying should absolutely not be tolerated but IMO the emphasis should be on restoration and justice instead of punishment IMO.

    That's such a limpwristed response to bullying. The average bully doesn't care about restoration and justice, that's why they're bullies. No amount of righteous indignation or high horsing is going to make them care.

    The proper response to bullying is the same as the proper response to tyranny. Not appeasement and pandering, but an uncompromising commitment to putting them in their place.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    Not appeasement and pandering, but an uncompromising commitment to putting them in their place.

    I didn't say to appease or pander to the bully's sensibilities. And putting them in their place might be part of the bully's restoration.

    The average bully doesn't care about restoration and justice, that's why they're bullies.

    This was specifically about bullying in schools, i.e. they're children. Some of them might grow up to be bullies, but my view is that most childhood bullies have not yet developed empathy for their peers. I.e., people can change, especially children.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    You said not to punish them. How do you intend to teach them empathy if all they learn is that they can get away with doing what they want?

    I was a child once. I got bullied by other children. Some of them grew up, some of them didn't. But you know what never helped? The adults who focused their ire on me anytime in stood up for myself, instead of having my back or telling the bullies to knock it off. No, they just told me I'm supposed to be better than them, so I'd get in just as much if not more trouble than they did, because "held to a higher standard" or some shit.

    All they did was create a feeble, traumatized, spineless adult who lets others walk all over him because he's too afraid to stand up for himself, not because he's intimidated by bullies, but because he fears the authorities and feels he doesn't deserve the ground beneath his feet. An adult who bottled up all his emotions, because there was nowhere else for them to go, until years later when he couldn't hold in the pressure anymore and his psyche started rupturing into mental breakdowns and became entirely unable to participate in society.

    Except no on ever says "it's okay, it's understandable, he has trauma." No, people say "That guy's crazy, stay away, he's mentally unstable, ew." They say "stop blaming your childhood, you're not a victim, trauma isn't real, you're clearly choosing to have mental breakdowns because you want attention and it makes you feel powerful" which is entirely counterfactual.

    So no, don't let bullies off the hook because you think "punishment" is a naughty word. All you're gonna do is enable them to push their victims over the edge, with no recourse but to feel backed into a corner and have to fight their way out.

    I've never shot anybody, because that's not something I would do. But I can definitely understand how enduring years of that kind of treatment can make someone feel like they have no other option besides seeking vengeance, making others feel the pain that those others had made them feel. And to an unbalanced psyche in that sort of state, everyone who minimized and dismissed and ignored their pain when they cried out for help might seem like valid targets. That doesn't make it right, but from a psychological point of view, it's easy to see the direct line of cause-and-effect, if you take a moment to remove those socialized glasses of admitting the facts only when they're comfortable.

    A large proportion of school shooters were victims of bullying. That doesn't mean we should stigmatizing the victims and ostracize them further, although that's probably the response most "normies" would jump to. But that would exacerbate the problem. No, the problem is to reduce the prevalence of bullying, and give victims sufficient avenues for redress and support, so that they don't feel like they have to fend for themselves while backed into a corner with their hands tied behind their back and pushed daily beyond the reasonable limits of what a human psyche can take until they can't take anymore and finally snap.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    You said not to punish them. How do you intend to teach them empathy if all they learn is that they can get away with doing what they want?

    Because punishment shouldn't be the focus. It shouldn't be "you did bad thing therefore bad thing happens to you". I'm not saying it has to be a totally positive experience for the bully, bully might even have to get their teeth rearranged for them, but what I take issue with is the institutional, top-down, carceral mentality of punishment. The focus should be on making the victim whole and making sure the bully doesn't bully again, not that the bully gets some requisite amount of pain and suffering.

    The adults who focused their ire on me anytime in stood up for myself, instead of having my back or telling the bullies to knock it off. No, they just told me I'm supposed to be better than them, so I'd get in just as much if not more trouble than they did, because "held to a higher standard" or some shit.

    Yeah I'm absolutely not saying that. If you beat the shit out of someone bullying you, you are generically in the right as far as I'm concerned.

    So no, don't let bullies off the hook because you think "punishment" is a naughty word.

    Again, that's absolutely not what I am advocating. Quite the opposite, actually. I am advocating that we treat bullies like people capable of change. Hold them accountable for their actions. And if that process is painful the bully, so be it, but inflicting pain and suffering on the bully should not be the primary goal. When we do this, the bully simply learns to pick better targets.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    It seems like you're assuming I have a retributive approach to justice, and I think that's where this disagreement is coming from. I don't though. I don't think bullies should be punished just for the sake of punishing them. That wouldn't be effective.

    Sure, the focus should be on making the victim whole and making the bully stop being a bully. The first part of that I think is beyond the scope of this discussion. I assume we would agree that it would take some research-based approach likely involving counseling and social support. But I'm not here to hash out those details because it's not my expertise.

    As far as making the bullying stop bullying though, that requires either extrinsic interventions, which would be reactive and circumstantial at best, or giving the bully an intrinsic motivation to stop bullying. Most people are motivated by the desire to be a good person and treat others with kindness. Those people aren't bullies in the first place. Bullies don't have that motive.

    So what could motivate a bully to stop bullying? Well, you wouldn't bribe them with nice rewards for good behavior. That would be unfair to people who were never bullies in the first place, and to the bully's victims.

    Psychologically speaking, extrinsic motivators fall into two broad categories: rewards and punishments.

    So how is that not bringing us full circle? Because the punishment here isn't strictly retributive. The point isn't to get back at them because "fair's fair." The point is to force them to stop bullying by making it more painful to them to continue bullying than they find worth the intrinsic reward they feel from bullying.

    Maybe it sounds crass to say we need to cognitively/behaviorally condition bullies to stop bullying, but what else can you do besides asking them nicely to stop? What do you do when they refuse?

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  • [–] 45 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    The drones can remain airborne for about eight minutes on a single battery charge

    1. Hear drone
    2. Hide for 8 minutes
    3. Drone evaded
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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Couldn't you just shoot the drone?

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  • [–] 41 points 3 months ago
    [–] 41 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    That’s the most American “solution” to the most American of problems.

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  • [–] 36 points 3 months ago

    In 5 years we can automate school shootings and put real shooters out of a job.

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  • [–] 34 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Something tells me thry won't be using them specifically for school shootings.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    These are absolutely going to be used to break up big fights, then small fights, then arguments, then they'll just be roaming the halls looking for any undesirable activities.

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  • [–] 29 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Maybe it's just my inner gamer talking, but isn't the kid doing the school shooting just going to shoot down the drone for bonus points?

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Evidently the idea is waves of drones to keep him busy till the cops get there

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  • [–] 29 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    So they just need to wear non-vented goggles and a filtered mask. Now they have easy targets who are blinded by the pepper spray to which they are immune.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Or they could just shoot the drone.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago

    Why? It's incapacitated the potential targets. Let the drone shoot, the shooter need not worry if they are immune to it's effects.

    Little Billy took a wrong turn, though. He slipped on the spray that settled on the ground. The ambient spray in the air has drifted into his eyes. Now he can't see, doesn't know which way to crawl. His panic and pain will be short lived, as the shooter no longer needs to aim, as his target is unable to flee.

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  • [–] 29 points 3 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    How long til they're deployed on rowdy students?

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    That's probably the point. If they do a walk out for Palestine or something you send in the drones to attack them. Blame it on a computer glitch and if all else fails blame it on woke. They're banning phones at school so that no one will be able to record footage of it happening and so that they can make the school security camera footage just disappear

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  • [–] 27 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Nation of psychopaths. Just control guns FFS.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago

    Didn't you read the article? Clearly they are...they had some self-control, and fitted the drones with less-lethals instead.

    You want them to strap it with an AR or something?

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  • [–] 27 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Anything but gun regulation

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Some bored kid in robotics class is gonna hack a drone and spray a bunch unsuspecting classmates one day.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    Exactly this! My son tried to print a picture of a fire alarm from his school Chromebook and some how sent the print job to every single printer in the building. The IT department had absolutely no idea how he was able to do it, because only teachers are supposed to be able to connect to the printers. Now imagine that with drones filled with pepper spray.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    so now the kids will have to run and hide while blind and in pain

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    And school shooters will need gas masks. Stupid fucking solution.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    ☝🏻 Modern NBC Honeywell filters aren't cheap. I know, I looked into modifying a surplus skin tight Russian gas mask, first term Trump. If I survived a nuclear blast I'd still hope to be able to breathe was the point.

    Either way, it gets costly because once you open that filter, you better be ready to use it, kind of thing, meaning they start to degrade once you open one. So, it's not the masks really that get ya, it's the price of the filters.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago (10 children)

    Just like fighting gym leader Brock with Charmander.
    RswoQTsd9OA6SQW.gif

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    They're not that easy to hit. I once invited someone to try hitting my camera drone with a 9mm and they couldn't, despite all bluster and claims otherwise. it might have been easier inside a building.

    But, any rounds expended toward the drone are rounds not sent to children/staff. And an FPV drone to the face even without pepper spray can mess up someone's aim.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (6 children)
    1. The point is that the terrifying systemic problem of school shooters should be tackled at its root causes, not merely suppressing symptoms. It's beyond absurd that schools in the US have become institutions of normalized violence.
    2. Going to another room and closing the door renders any drone "not very effective…" School shooters have nothing left to lose. These drones are an extremely expensive yet stupid way of defusing such people. From the article:

    The drones can remain airborne for about eight minutes on a single battery charge
    I know the US is plagued by obesity, but I'm pretty sure the average shooter can outrun a drone for more than 8 minutes inside a building. What a bad joke. This is simply about signing contract deals for weapons manufacturers because everything about this screams poor taste.
    However, not everyone is convinced the drones are the right approach.

    That includes Tony Montalto, whose 14-year-old daughter Gina Montalto was among the 17 people killed in the 2018 mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school in Parkland, Florida. He told WPTV: “These drones aren’t patrolling – they just pop up when needed. So that’s part of the problem. We need to focus on the prevention piece rather than the reaction piece.”

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  • [–] -4 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    "Its not perfect, therefore no effort should be expended toward any possible harm reduction"

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

    “Its not perfect, therefore no effort should be expended toward any possible harm reduction”
    2lSOYohMU6B4G3C.jpeg

    Non sequitur fallacy and then some. Not only didn't I say "it's not perfect", I said it's completely stupid such as what's depicted in the illustration above. I also didn't say "no effort should be expended", in fact, my first sentence proves the contrary: most efforts should be concentrated on the root causes. And the last sentence quotes the article, symptomatic measures should be prevention, e.g., patrol. Money towards these drones can be spent far more wisely.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    A friend was annoying me with one, so I caught it with my hand from behind, and held it steady.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I'm sure this won't be abused at allllll.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    It's not going to get used at all. They'll sit in their pods, collecting dust and by the time they get activated, if ever, the batteries will be dead, the control software will have bad update or version mismatch, or the nozzles will be clogged.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    (I’m not a US citizen; I believe guns should be controlled and there’s no reason for a citizen to own a gun)

    Don’t US school run shooter exercises? Darwin, even here in the UK where I live, the secondary school (12-16) ran twice yearly active shooter exercises - although they called them something else, like “lockdown exercise” and we’ve only ever had one school shooting (1996).

    My point being that surely any exercise would train the whole response system, including pepper spray drones (still can’t quite believe I’m typing this - anything to avoid actual gun control, I guess)?

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    This well be used on students. Mark my words.

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