I realized my VLC was broke some point in the week after updating Arch. I spend time troubleshooting then find a forum post with replies from an Arch moderator saying they knew it would happen and it's my fault for not wanting to read through pages of changelogs. Another mod post says they won't announce that on the RSS feed either. I thought I was doing good by following the RSS but I guess that's not enough.

I've been happily using Arch for 5 years but after reading those posts I've decided to look for a different distro. Does anyone have recommendations for the closest I can get to Arch but with a different attitude around updating?

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[–] 98 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (36 children)

Based on what you describe, I would strongly recommend going with OpenSUSE Tumbleweed. It's just as bleeding-edge as Arch, but all packages go through automatic testing to ensure they won't break anything, and if some manual actions are required, it will offer options right before update. Moreover, snapper in enabled by default on btrfs partitions, and it makes snapshots automatically before updates, so even if something breaks somehow, reverting takes a few seconds.

One small footnote is that you'll need to add separate VLC repo or Packman for VLC to have full functionality - proprietary codecs are one of the rare things official repos don't feature for legal reasons.

On Arch rant: I've always been weirded out by this "Arch is actually stable, you just have to watch every news post for manual interventions before every update, oh, and you better update very often" attitude.

Like, no, this is not called stable or even usable for general audience. Updating your system and praying for it not to break while studying everything you need to know is antithetical to stability and makes for an awful daily driver.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    The VLC thing can be solved relatively easily by installing opi with zypper, and then running opi codecs, which will add all the necessary repos and install everything. After that VLC (and h.264 etc) will work like a charm.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    True!

    Although, as another commenter pointed out, this will use Packman repo which is not official and apps there are not going through the same testing as in official repos.

    So Flatpak is generally a better option. Still, if you want VLC as a native package, opi is indeed an easy and reliable option.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I upvoted you, I am a fellow openSUSE fan and contributor.

    But I need to point out that if you install VLC from a repository outside of Factory, then it's not auto-tested.

    Moreover, Packman is external to the openSUSE project altogether. If you use it, you are supposed to "just trust" that everything will be fine.

    You are better off installing VLC through Flatpak.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Fair point! Honestly, that's exactly what I ultimately went for, I just know there are people around who strongly prefer native packages.

    Flatpak contains all codecs etc., and works flawlessly.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm running Arch for a very long time. I agree this is not a distro for general audience. I disagree, however, that it is not stable. When I'm doing work I don't update my system. I enjoy my stable configuration and when I have time, I do update, I curiously watch which amazing foss software had an update. And I try them. I check my new firefox. I check gimp's new features. etc.. or if I have to do something I easily fix it, like in no time because I know my OS. Then I enjoy my stable system again.

    Do you want to know what's unstable? When I had my new AMD GPU that I built my own kernel for, because the driver wasn't in mainline. And it randomly crashed the system. That's unstable.

    Or when I installed my 3rd DE in ubuntu and apt couldn't deal with it, it somehow removed X.org. And I couldn't fix it. That's also something I don't want. Arch updates are much better than this.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Guess we simply apply different meaning to the word "stable". (you do you, though, and if it's alright with your workflow, yay!)

    To me, stable means reliably working without any special maintenance. Arch requires you to update once in a while (otherwise your next update might get borked), and when you update, you may have to resolve conflicts and do manual interventions.

    Right now, I run OpenSUSE Slowroll (beta, not released yet) on one of my machines and EndeavourOS on the other. The former recently had to update 1460 elements, and one intervention was required - package manager asked me if I want to hold one package for a while to avoid potential dependency issues. Later, it was fixed, and otherwise it went without a hitch. This is the worst behavior I've seen on this distribution, and so to me it renders "acceptably unstable" for general use (although I wouldn't give that to my grandma).

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  • [+] -18 points 1 year ago (28 children)

    you just have to watch every news post for manual interventions before every update, oh, and you better update very often

    You have to watch the factory mailing list and make any manual interventions for Tumbleweed, and frankly, you should be watching the news and taking any action required no matter the os.

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  • [–] 44 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

    A decent daily driver distro for regular user should not break on blind update - at most, it should warn the user automatically before applying updates. If user is expected to check news every time they want to update their system - it is not a good fit for anyone but enthusiasts.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Where did you get the idea that Arch is a daily driver for regular user? The very distro that tells in big letters: stuff can break, you better watch out on updates? The very distro that has command-line install process with chroot-like commands as official one?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There are distros based on Arch that are proclaimed to be user friendly and ready for general desktop/gaming use. Plus plenty of people online tell others to use Arch as a daily driver.

    Regardless I don't think an update should happen if it's going to break something, unless you manually over ride the warnings it should be showing.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Well, Arch wiki explicitly tells you are expected to read the page before doing an update. Those distros which claim to be user-friendly as in "we treat you with kids gloves" definitely should take care of this, no questions here

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  • [+] -38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    Anyone who is not curious enough to type yay -Pw before typing yay should probably stick with something like Windows. And even then, you should watch out for the rare manual intervention.

    Edit: Tone.

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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    I don't think it makes sense to gatekeep Linux only to those who has time, energy, and dedication to continuously check for necessary interventions and to familiarize themselves with all the terminal utilities in the first place.

    That is a sort of elitism we need to carefully avoid - one, because otherwise it would halven the desktop Linux community, and two, because there's a huge group of people out there who need what Linux offers, but cannot dedicate themselves to it in the way enthusiasts do.

    For them, there must be an option to push the button and get a smooth update, with everything resolved automatically or prompted in a user-friendly way. Arch is not that.

    You feel comfy doing this - alright, no one stops you, Arch is great and has a purpose. But we should never put blame on users for not using their system The Arch Way™, because it's too technical, too engaged, and is just a poor fit for most. People will not and should not accommodate for this just to use their system. There's no need to.

    If someone chose Arch and complains that it breaks things, it could be useful to point out Arch doesn't have required guardrails to make it operable in a way they expect, and direct the user to other distributions that have them and potentially least painful ways to migrate.

    Having tried Arch and its derivatives, and recognizing their strong points, I can absolutely tell the person needs another distribution, and that's alright! Whatever fits anybody is up to them. And for stable rolling release experience without the need for manual checking (but also without some of the power features of Arch mainly geared toward enthusiasts) there's OpenSUSE Tumbleweed.

    Edit: Tone.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I don't use Arch, I use Endeavour because they took Arch and made it better. As to why I used yay as my example, there are two reasons:

    1. It's what I use
    2. It's nice to show how easy and simple it is when it's done properly and it normally takes 5 seconds, more when you have to do something. No wading through busy mailing lists hoping to spot an issue. I'm looking at you Debian and Tumbleweed!
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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    I see!

    I do, in fact, use Endeavour on my desktop as well, simply because I like snappiness and choice of Arch and similarly don't wanna bother with the pure one (and also EndeavourOS forums are more friendly in my experience). I run OpenSUSE Slowroll (an experimental Tumbleweed build, same idea as Manjaro, but actually done right) on my other laptop, so can speak from the experience on both ends.

    With Slowroll (and my gf's Tumbleweed) I've only once faced the need for manual intervention, and it was simply to resolve a dependency change by choosing which package to leave - literally enter one number, and then it went on peacefully and correctly installing 1460 updates (yeah, they pushed a big Tumbleweed dump, 3.5 gigs total). On Arch and EndeavourOS, the last intervention was just recently, that's the one OP talks about, and they do happen more often and are more complicated than I'd like.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I used Tumbleweed for eight or so years before switching to Endeavour and it only really bit me hard once. Update, reboot, and sudo no longer worked! If I had spent a bit more time going through the mailing list, I could have made a simple configuration change before rebooting and saved a lot of stress! It affected nearly everybody who installed that particular image.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I'd say one issue in 8 years is a stellar track record!

    But I agree they should have warned users a better way.

    Anyway, I like how btrfs is treated within Tumbleweed - snapper is fully configured and enabled by default, and you can load a snapshot and rollback into it from the boot menu - all that would take you less than a minute, and any faulty update will be gone for good. With ext4, though, you might need Timeshift. But then, all that can be done within Arch with just a few more tweaks!

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I’d say one issue in 8 years is a stellar track record!

    Yeah, it's a pretty good track record. It was definitely a failure of communication in that instance, but iirc, they ended up rolling the change back a couple of days later.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Well… not really. My current installation of Tumbleweed is three and a half years old, and back in 2022 the only reason I re-installed it was changing the NVMe drive. I’ve never read factory mailing list and don’t ever recall having made manual interventions. I’ve just booted it, updated (zypper ref; zypper dup), rebooted and continued working.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    taking any action required no matter the os

    This is not really true for fixed release distros. I can’t remember when was the last time I had to read through the release note before Ubuntu version upgrade, or upgrading any package.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    I used to think that, then I learnt the truth. Now-a-days, I say that you may as well use a rolling release because it's not really any more work that a fixed release and you have up to date software.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Just to reiterate the same point - in fixed release, a package version is not released until all known issues are resolved.

    At no point, it is end user responsibility to bother checking anything before installing a new version.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    in fixed release, a package version is not released until all known issues are resolved.

    That's not really true. It's more important that the issues are known. Sometimes they actually wait longer to fix issues since it would introduce changes

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Oh yes, the most mythical of software. Bug free.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Bugs are of two types - known (found during testing by Distro maintainer) and unknown.

    Fixed release fixes known bugs before pushing packages.

    It is following the standard development life cycle.

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    [–] 29 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I've been an Arch user for more than a decade and I'll usually be first in line to defend it from dodgy claims about unreliability.

    But that forum response is bizarre. Literally the last two RSS items right now are about how splitting packages will require intervention for some users (plasma and Linux firmware). VLC is an officially supported package, and surely this change would impact almost every VLC user?

    New opt-depends is a nice pacman feature, but it hardly implies that things have been removed from the base package.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Literally the last two RSS items right now are about how splitting packages will require intervention for some users (plasma and Linux firmware).

    Maybe a nitpick, but the linux-firmware situation is different, it's not about needing to install extra packages (they turned the existing package into a meta package or whatever it's called), but about that coinciding with some changes that can break the upgrade process and require you to force uninstall a package before proceeding.

    But yeah, good point about plasma, the only differences I can even think of are that plasma is probably more popular, and definitely more important to have working.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Sorry for not answering your questions, I haven't used arch before. But dang that sucks I've been wanting to try arch for a little while but I didn't know they would happily push updates they know will break certain programs.

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's more like they expect you to do more reading than I would like to do. If I had been reading more of what they would like, I would have known I was expected to make a decision before updating and install an additional package. So from that view, they didn't push a breaking update.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    When an upgrade spits out that much text, you should bat an eye.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 year ago

    I'd like to be able to take it all in but I can go weeks without the energy or interest to read a wall of text. Other times I'll start an update and lose interest while it downloads. I realize these are personal problems but that's why I value custom tools like Linux I can adapt to my needs and shortfalls.

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  • [+] 21 points 1 year ago (10 children)
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I doubt the forum style is really the issue.

    EndeacourOS, one of my favourite distros, uses the same packages (the real Arch ones). So everything he says here applies.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    +1 for Garuda. It's nice that they have their own way of updating (garuda-update), which also handles situations like this one. It was very satisfying to not have to do anything when the linux-firmware change happened a couple of weeks back.

    Oh, also snapshots by default are a chef's kiss

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  • [+] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Garuda works differently. You use garuda-update instead of pacman, and it takes care of just about everything for you. So, for example, if you have something like needing to uninstall a package because it was split (like linux firmware), garuda-update just takes care of that for you (after they update the scripts, which takes at most a week usually)

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    Fedora, great blend of bleeding edge and stability. Plus Linus uses it, so what better praise could you get.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I hope we're talking about that Linus, and not that Linus. You know, the one that works with computers, and not the other one that works with computers.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Can definitely recommend Fedora too. Software updates are at a good pace, and the system has a lot of polish all around. For example, all you need to do for updates is to press "update" in Discover and it'll do everything for you, applying on reboot for stability. Most things "just work".

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    that's exactly how updates should work in every desktop distro. as an option of course.

    systemd made it possible to install updates on shutdown.
    packagekit enabled kde software to automatically obtain and prepare the updates.
    plasma does the final touch nowadays to ask you on the reboot/shutdown dialog whether you want to install them.

    Basically all the system is in place, with code from widely used parties. packagekit can even integrate with your filesystem to make a snapshot before install. It's wonderful. yet, it seems as if only fedora supports this full setup right now? or is there anything else?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I've tried quite a few distros (openSUSE, Ubuntu, Solus, Arch, so on) and none seem to offer this feature. It's a shame, as it's quite useful to have since updating a live system can sometimes cause some trouble. Even just the updating from Discover can be broken on some systems (I know openSUSE at the very least acts a bit funny when it comes to PackageKit, I think Arch as well).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I've been told that opensuse tumbleweed has it. I've also read a suse forum post saying leap 16 will support offline updates, releasing in January, so they could be the first to support all of this with fs snapshots

    Even just the updating from Discover can be broken on some systems

    if you didn't enable offline updates in systemsettings, then it'll do roughly the same as you would in the terminal, so that's not unexpected

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Discover is a KDE thing, not a fedora thing. Not fedora exclusive.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It is a KDE thing, but Fedora is the distro on which it works best. On a lot of other distros it often runs into problems.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    I can attest to that. It's remarkable on how few distros updating through Discover actually works reliably. I always update through the terminal because at least that works. I've noticed this issue on Kubuntu (apt), Debian (apt), and OpenSUSE (zypper). I think these issues are related to the PackageKit integration.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    The only issue is that you provide free testing for IBM, so it's a no go if you try to boycott/avoid US companies. If you don't it's indeed a great choice.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    How are you providing free testing by using something if you don't actively file bug reports and such?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Telemetry, but I don't know if many Linux user doesn't turn it off. But I also don't know if many Linux user doesn't fill bug reports.

    Also, if you use Fedora you may recommend it to people that will leave telemetry and/or file bug report. And you also contribute to make the red hat ecosystem relevant, potentially bringing paid customers for RHEL. It's a drop in the ocean of course, but personally I don't want to contribute to it.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    And don't report bugs when you find one ?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    As long as they're not for the core Fedora projects why not? Bugs for those should be scarce and there are many other users to report them anyway.

    Using and contributing to FOSS is hardly scabbing regardless. Unless you're donating to the project I wouldn't consider even bug reporting as directly supporting IBM. The tangible profit to them is pennies if that.

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    [–] 68 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    OpenSUSE TUMBLEWEED, always updating, but they have an OpenQA tool that checks the builds for success, and if for some reason something did go bad you just reboot and pick the previous (automatic) snapshot. Lots of GUI tools to manage the system and packages via the various Yast2-GUI apps.

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    +1 for Tumbleweed. It's a rolling release distro without (most of) the hassle and YaST is a fantastic utility which you can use to do many things. Nice graphical stuff to help you configure things like backup. Never had any breakages so far with Tumbleweed :)

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Another +1 for Tumbleweed. It's an simple setup, easy to roll back if needed, and has solid tools like Yast that help manage most aspects of your os.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Also, obs and opi are such useful services, I don't think it's possible to not use them once you've tried them. OpenSUSE Tumbleweed just gets so many things right that I'd recommend it to any person who's moderately familiar with Linux with how easy it's to use.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Thanks! This wasn't a distro I knew much about but it's looking like one I will try out. The way they test packages is exactly the kind of choices around updates I'm looking for.

    I like how many options Yast exposes. I enjoyed learning how to do most of what I need in the terminal with Arch but being able to do everything I need through GUI helps when I'm not able to recall a lot in the moment but still need to do a thing.

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  • [–] 63 points 1 year ago

    I've been an Arch user for about 15 years now, and I've never posted to the forums. Not because I'm great at this and don't break things. I constantly break things and need to fix them. I don't ask questions there because before you'll get any help you are going to get sat down and explained (in great detail sometimes) how you are the stupidest piece of shit on Earth.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'd recommend opensuse tumbleweed. Codecs can be a little weird, so I recommend installing a flatpak for VLC and your browser. Otherwise, I've found it to be a very similar experience.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    After having a similar feeling as yours I went for NixOS.

    My thoughts then : if it breaks I can rollback, and the unstable channel is quite comparable to what arch offers.

    Now : I've moved to stable channel, because it's updated enough and allows me to only deal with breaking changes twice a year. Moving to NixOS was time consuming (but fun) because it required to rewrite all my dotfiles and learn something new.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    What issues did you have? One of the many awesome things about NixOS is that you can write overrides for any particular package if you need an older version, or even to change some options.

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  • [–] 44 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The same thing happened to me. The package was split into separate packages. Install the package vlc-plugins-all.

    sudo pacman -S vlc-plugins-all
    

    Problem solved

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I'm curious as to why the package manager doesn't fix this automatically?

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I don't want to fault people for avoiding Arch's instability in general but this is a very minor issue.

    VLC is not a system critical package. I absolutely understand the mods choice to not put it in the RSS. At most they could put a notice in the pacman logs when it updates.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    I like Arch because of the AUR and Pacman. Debian and Ubuntu had me adding a bunch of PPA's which I found way more annoying. Debian probably would be my second choice though. As for the VLC thing, it took me less than 5 minutes from noticing there was a problem, to finding the solution online. Then I was watching The Whitest Kids U' Know in VLC.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    yeah i had that happen to me too, didn't look in the update screen because updates before went with a breeze but i took another look after VLC wouldn't play anything, it was something with the VLC plugins and i needed to reinstall those, just had to do sudo pacamn -S vlc-plugins-all to get VLC to play video files back, but man, that should have been in the news imo.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I had the same issue, hadn't found the solution yet (also didn't looked too hard) and while I sort of agree that it should have been in the news I also understand why it's not (it only affects people with VLC, and not everyone uses VLC, if every time a package gets split it was in the news the news would be all about that). That being said I think that there were other solutions that would have been much better, namely split the package with a mandatory dependency on vlc-plugins-all and convert that to optional dependency in a month or two, that way everything keeps working as is for people during the transition, but after a short while it can be modularized.

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