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[–] 143 points 4 months ago (44 children)

So then why are they banned in federal buildings? If they are not dangerous allow them everywhere, hypocrites

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  • [+] -33 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (42 children)

    I mean in reality they are allowed in federal buildings, just not for citizens. They're also banned at sporting events. I don't think anyone is arguing guns aren't dangerous any more then people argue cars aren't dangerous, but we're still allowed to legislate where you can and can't drive. No ones saying 'If cars are so safe why can't I drive on the sidewalk?' Because most people understand not everything should be allowed everywhere.

    Property owners are still free to make their property gun free zones, this decision just means you don't need express consent to enter if there's no signage or rules stating that.

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  • [–] 52 points 4 months ago* (34 children)

    but we're still allowed to legislate where you can and can't drive. No ones saying 'If cars are so safe why can't I drive on the sidewalk?'

    Just from a legal standpoint, that’s an especially bad example because nobody, anywhere in this country, has any right to drive anywhere, especially not a constitutionally-protected one. Driving is a privilege bestowed by the states.

    In fact, if something so dangerous as driving a car is a highly regulated privilege, and not right, then maybe carrying a gun should be too.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (21 children)

    What drives the rest of the world crazy, is Americans have the right to bare arms in order to stop a tyrannical government. Well guess what kind of government you have right now, and people aren’t doing shite.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (19 children)

    Americans have the right to bare arms in order to stop a tyrannical government

    That was only ever pro-gun misinformation to make unchecked private gun ownership sound not just reasonable, but HEROIC.

    The 2A was explicitly and deliberately written to provide assistance for national defense AGAINST rebellions as an alternative to a standing army.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago* (18 children)

    The 2A was explicitly and deliberately written to affirm the right of the "Militia" (i.e. the People) to defend the "free State" (i.e. themselves against tyranny).

    The thing was written by people who had literally just finished rebelling against their legitimate government. You cannot credibly say they weren't pro-rebellion.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (16 children)

    the "Militia" (i.e. the People well-regulated militias)

    Fixed it for you.

    to defend the "free State" (i.e. themselves against tyranny the state against its enemies).

    Fixed that too.

    People don't tend to write laws in code, actually.

    When you write "security of a free state" and "well-regulated militia" in a legally binding text, what you mean ISN'T "defense against an oppressive state" and "well-regulated militias" ISN'T "everyone, regardless of whether they're in a well-regulated militia".

    To quote someone who was as wrong about it as you are but could turn a phrase sometimes, your interpretation is pure applesauce.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (15 children)

    the "Militia" (i.e. the People well-regulated militias)

    Fixed it for you.

    Bullshit, I was right the first time. "Militia" means "every able-bodied adult male" and "well-regulated" means "well-trained."

    People don't tend to write laws in code, actually.

    Fuck your ahistorical revisionism. We know exactly what they meant when they wrote this shit because they explained themselves in the Federalist papers. Federalist #46, for instance, specifically discusses the militia as a check against Federal power.

    Bottom line is this: I'm right, you're wrong, the end, bye-bye.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (14 children)

    Bullshit, I was right the first time

    Nope. You just weren't.

    Militia" means "every able-bodied adult male"

    No. Militia is a specific thing. Militia means militia. If they had meant "every able-bodied male", that's what they would have written, except they'd probably go with "man" like in the founding documents.

    "well-regulated" means "well-trained.

    Again, regulation and training are different things, ESPECIALLY in a government context.

    Besides, if the founding fathers intended to limit gun ownership to people who has had sufficient training ti responsibly store and handle them (which would be a great idea), WHY do pro-gun people only ever state so when trying to explain away the requirement for regulation in the text? Very curious 🤔

    You're using the meme wrong. Using the word "actually" doesn't automatically make you the ackchyually guy regardless of context.

    Then again, misunderstanding intention, meaning, and context in order to misrepresent the words of others seems to be your favorite thing 🙄

    Fuck your ahistorical revisionism

    Right back at you.

    I'm not revising anything. I'm explaining the literal and obvious meaning of language meant to be literal and obvious.

    When writing law, having the literal text be the same as the intention is RULE ONE.

    The only way your interpretation can possibly be correct is if the founding fathers were EXTREMELY bad at legislating.

    We know exactly what they meant when they wrote this shit because they explained themselves in the Federalist papers.

    The Federalist Papers weren't law, they were the equivalent of opinion columns.

    When the law says one thing and an opinion piece says another, you go with what the law says.

    Bottom line is this: I'm right, you're wrong, the end, bye-bye.

    Right back at you.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (13 children)

    Everything you just wrote is a fucking lie. You are persistently trying to apply your 21^st^ century "understanding" to 18^th^ century writing and getting it objectively, factually, wrong. And then you're trying to draw bullshit conclusions based on that incorrect understanding!

    Take this nonsense, for instance:

    Besides, if the founding fathers intended to limit gun ownership to people who has had sufficient training ti responsibly store and handle them (which would be a great idea), WHY do pro-gun people only ever state so when trying to explain away the requirement for regulation in the text? Very curious 🤔

    You think you found some sort of gotcha logical contradiction, but you can't get out of your own ass long enough to realize that, whoops, your premise is wrong because you didn't even read the "literal and obvious" plain text of the damn thing correctly. The "shall not be infringed" part does not depend on the "well-regulated" part, which means your "if" is false! "Well-regulated" is a reason and an aspiration, but it is not a requirement.

    The Federalist Papers weren’t law, they were the equivalent of opinion columns.

    We were arguing about the intent of the founding fathers. Now you're trying to pretend the documents where they literally explained their intent somehow don't count because "that's just, like, their opinion, man." That is just blatant bad faith. You don't give a fuck about what's true or correct or right; you're just trying to beat me into submission with a gish gallop of bullshit.

    When the law says one thing and an opinion piece says another, you go with what the law says.

    Again, the law doesn't say what you think it says, and never did.

    Speaking of which: why are you so Hell-bent on promoting tyranny, anyway? Why do you apparently so love the idea of The People not being able to defend themselves against The State? Why are you carrying water for the fascists by dogmatically pushing your sick, twisted, authoritarian misinterpretation of the law?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (4 children)

    I've read most of it as an impartial judge and here's my verdict: you're both mixing some valid arguments with bullshit, you both lost focus long time ago and your stupid style of replying is impossible to follow.

    The reality is simply that the US constitution is an outdated document that should not serve as the basis for laws in a modern country. It was great at creating an extremely stable system but unfortunately the system it created sucks. It completely failed at granting meaningful rights to it's citizens and preventing fascism. Arguing about how some slave rapists envisioned the state should handle semi automatic rifles has as much sense as arguing about maximum possible Warp speed or something. It's all fantasy because founding fathers had no idea what the country will look like 200 years later and didn't prepare the laws for it.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    The reality is simply that the US constitution is an outdated document that should not serve as the basis for laws in a modern country.

    The argument I've been participating in has been about what the Second Amendment was at the time it was written. The original intent of the people who wrote it. There is only one correct interpretation of that (which is mine, BTW), and modern interpretations have absolutely fuck-all to do with it.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The original intent was to allow people to own muskets because US didn't have a standing army. What's there to argue? You're just playing fantasy politics trying to guess how this law would apply to situations it wasn't meant for.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    The original intent was to allow people to own muskets because US didn’t have a standing army.

    Because the founders explicitly didn't want the US to have a standing army, explicitly to prevent the Federal government from being able to subjugate the People. That's an important distinction.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    It may be important distinction for historians but it's irrelevant when discussing current decisions for the Supreme Court regarding modern gun laws.

    The whole discussion started because of gun laws in Hawaii. You took it all back to the original intent. Who cares about it? Their intent is irrelevant in today's geopolitical situation, with modern guns and with US having a standing army. Both of you are just trying to justify your current world view by using irrelevant facts. What you're doing is more similar to interpreting the bible than arguing about constitution. You have your scripture, your prophets, your dogmas and you're basically arguing which rabbi is better at interpreting all of it.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    why are you so Hell-bent on promoting tyranny, anyway?

    Begging the question, asssumes the conclusion that the other person is intent on promoting tyranny.

    Why do you apparently so love the idea of The People not being able to defend themselves against The State?

    Strawman, misrepresents the other person's argument.

    Why are you carrying water for the fascists by dogmatically pushing your sick, twisted, authoritarian misinterpretation of the law?

    Red herring, attempts to change the subject under debate from interpretation of the 2A to if the other person is supporting fascists.

    And the whole paragraph is a kind of ad hominem/appeal to emotion.

    Hey, I'm not here to say if you're right or wrong about your interpretation of the 2A. I'm just here to tell you you're being a fallacious asshole.

    Good luck convincing anyone of anything 😏

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Congrats on ignoring three paragraph of substantive arguments to focus on the addendum that wasn't part of the argument at all.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    The three paragraphs regarding the topic that I explicitly stated that I wasn't engaging with you about?

    The focus on the addendum that you didn't have to include but did anyway?

    You don't seem to understand that everything you say in an argument is part of the argument. You done fucked up by letting your emotions get the best of you, and if you think that doesn't impact your chances of successfully convincing another person about something, you're just fooling yourself. Humans are emotional creatures, and whether you're right is, at most, the same importance as maintaining the other person's willingness to accept that you're right. Yeah, that's fucked up, emotions should have nothing to do with whether something is correct or incorrect. If you're right, you're right... Right?

    Case in point: you know I'm right, but you're pissed off at me and don't want to admit it (but maybe you will, now that I've called you out on it, just to spite me)

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Everything you just wrote is a fucking lie

    Again, right back at you.

    I can explain it to you, (and I have, clearly, accurately, and exhaustively so) but I can't understand it for you.

    the "shall not be infringed" part does not depend on the "well-regulated" part

    It very much does. The amendment is structured as [reason for conclusion], [conclusion.

    If the conclusion had been inherently true regardless of the reasoning of the first part, the first part would have been superfluous and thus omitted.

    The fact that it wasn't means that it's not superfluous, which means that it's the basis for the conclusion.

    Well-regulated" is a reason and an aspiration, but it is not a requirement.

    What utter nonsense! In law as well as in any other logically coherent statement, something can't be a reason for the conclusion being reached without being necessary AKA a requirement for the conclusion to be reached.

    Otherwise, "shall not be infringed" is the equivalent of a biblical commandment and the rest of the amendment is just a superfluous afterthought.

    That's NOT how secular law works.

    We were arguing about the intent of the founding fathers.

    We were arguing about the intent of the law, which is what the law says. Otherwise, it's useless.

    the documents where they literally explained their intent disagreement

    Fixed it for you. There's no rhetorical hocus pocus fancy enough to make the statements of opinion in the Federalist match the text of the law and in cases of legal dispute, the text of the law itself takes precedence over the opinions of colleagues.

    don't count because "that's just, like, their opinion, man."

    Yes. That's what an opinion piece is, and the Federalist Papers were opinion pieces.

    Opinion isn't law no matter whose opinion.

    That is just blatant bad faith.

    Nope. That's a good faith explanation of the difference between opinion pieces and law.

    That reality is inconsistent with your pet theory isn't the fault of reality or the way in which I'm explaining it to you

    You don't give a fuck about what's true or correct or right; you're just trying to beat me into submission with a gish gallop of bullshit.

    This you?

    Again, the law doesn't say what you think it says, and never did.

    Again with your counterfactual crusade against logic and reading comprehension 🙄

    Speaking of which: why are you so Hell-bent on promoting tyranny, anyway?

    Holy strawman/false dichotomy combo, Batman!

    Must be running out of less obvious ways to deny objective reality when you're resorting to fallacies THAT blatant! 😄

    Why do you apparently so love the idea of The People not being able to defend themselves against The State?

    I never said or even implied anything of the sort.

    The people being able to defend themselves against the most powerful military in the history of humanity ≠ allowing any untrained idiot with delusions of grandeur or paranoia about their neighbors trying to kill them to own and carry deadly tools of violence.

    Why are you carrying water for the fascists

    Again, I'm doing no such thing, and never have.

    The vast majority of the fascists and their followers agree with your pet theory over my reality-based reading of plain and clear English.

    It's not my fault that the ones most loudly pretending to be the holy protectors of liberty are in fact the most ardent supporters of the tyrannical kakistocracy that is the fascist Trump administration.

    dogmatically pushing your sick, twisted, authoritarian misinterpretation of the law?

    Once again, you're displaying an uncanny ability to come to the exact opposite conclusion to one based in reality.

    "Dogmatically pushing their sick, twisted, authoritarian misinterpretation of the law" describes most of the "guns for everyone no matter what" crowd, which are almost always the same people who want to disenfranchise and abuse every persecuted minority group and allow cops to murder with impunity.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I've read most of it as an impartial judge and here's my verdict: you're both mixing some valid arguments with bullshit, you both lost focus long time ago and your stupid style of replying is impossible to follow.

    The reality is simply that the US constitution is an outdated document that should not serve as the basis for laws in a modern country. It was great at creating an extremely stable system but unfortunately the system it created sucks. It completely failed at granting meaningful rights to it's citizens and prevent fascism. Arguing about how some slave rapists envisioned the state should handle semi automatic rifles has as much sense as arguing about maximum possible Warp speed or something. It's all fantasy because founding fathers had no idea what the country will look like 200 years later and didn't prepare the laws for it.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Can't say I agree with your first paragraph, but these parts of your second are 100% true and much more important than our whole preceding argument:

    The reality is simply that the US constitution is an outdated document that should not serve as the basis for laws in a modern country

    the system it created sucks. It completely failed at granting meaningful rights to it's citizens and prevent fascism

    founding fathers had no idea what the country will look like 200 years later and didn't prepare the laws for it.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Except that, like so many others, they changed their tune as soon as they were the ones in power. See: whiskey rebellion

    (this ignores even the vaguest hints of nuance, of course)

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  • [+] -18 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Well if were speaking legally one of those is legally protected by an amendment to the constitution and one is a privilege added far after the writing of the document. Its not the fault of the firearm that no one called a constitution convention about cars.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (9 children)
  • [+] -18 points 4 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    rebut what? the fact that you completely misunderstood what I said?

    I don't feel like debating someone who clearly doesn't understand me or the subject under discussion. it would bee exhausting and pointless, and I have better things to do.

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  • [+] -18 points 4 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    well, if you're just going to keep making things up that I didn't say, then you hardly need me to participate.

    bye, troll. and blocked.

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  • [+] -19 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Take care stomping out of the room, try not to let the door hit ya.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Nobody here but you thinks you won that exchange.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago*

    Probably because I was trying to have a discussion not win an exchange, so when it was clear they weren't gonna discuss anymore, it was over. You can check the rest of these comment section and see that plenty of people were more than willing to have open intellectually honest, if a little tough, discussions about this decision. You people are weird trying to 'win exchanges'

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    "Hmph! Had enough of my wit?" they smugly replied with crossed arms, staring directly into the lifeless, beady eyes of a strawman. But rather than straw, it was excrement. And rather than the shape of a man, it instead was a toddler. Baffled onlookers wrinkled their noses before finding another place to be.

    Unbothered by the foul odor or soiling on their hands and trousers, their chuckles echoed off the walls of an empty room. "These kids never learn," they smirked.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Because most people understand not everything should be allowed everywhere.

    That's precisely my argument. I don't think people need to be carrying them at all

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    'This shouldn't be allowed everywhere' and 'This should be allowed nowhere' are not the same arguement though, I don't see how my quote fits your argument at all tbh.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Why are guns only allowed places where they are not, yet they champion their rights every where else. They can't have it both ways. Either we are responsible people with the rights to carry guns places, or we shouldn't have them. I don't know why there is this grey zone, that is conveniently where they happen to be at all times, yet we are the ones constantly put in danger due to the lax gun laws and regulations

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  • [+] -7 points 4 months ago*

    Either we are responsible people with the rights to carry guns places, or we shouldn't have them.

    So your saying we should be able to carry guns either nowhere or everywhere?

    Do you also believe we should be allowed to shout 'fire!' either everywhere or nowhere or do you think its okay that you can't do that in crowded places when there's no fire?

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It is not a fringe opinion in the American gun space that all firearms should be allowed anywhere, all existing gun laws should be dismantled, and any politician who tries to legislate guns should be tried for treason, or just shot.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago*

    Don't know why you're getting downvoted, because that is exactly the mindset the gun lobby has.

    [Edit] And are spending their lobbying money on to try and get approved into legislation, I should add.

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  • [–] 60 points 4 months ago

    Let me guess, guns still banned from supreme court public events?

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  • [–] 26 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    If it's private property can't the property owners just put up signs?

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  • [–] 27 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    Yep thats literally all they need to do. This bill just means if theres no signs you can walk in a public place without first tracking down who the owner is and getting expressed consent from them.

    Edit after re-reading the opinion a few times: Im pretty sure it doesn't necessarily have to be a posted sign either. Roberts mentions carriers being welcome UNTIL consent is withdrawn. A buisness owner should be able to withdraw consent multiple ways; signs, publicly avaliable rules that may or may not be visually posted, or even verbally telling someone carrying is not allowed. If im interpreting correctly, I believe the majority is trying to say that you just can't get in trouble for going in without first asking consent, but as soon as consent is known to you to be withdrawn, you're still liable to follow those rules. Similar to if you were tresspassing somewhere that had no signs posted; no immediate trouble as long as you respect the owner should they inform you and ask you to leave.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    In Poland, if you have a gun permit (which is hard to get) you have to follow many rules to carry it like you can't drink alcohol if you have your gun on you or you have to wear lose clothes that cover the gun. This is common sense but it also makes carrying a gun inconvenient (no beer and long shirts even during summer) so that people only carry them if they have to, not for fun. Requiring consent does the same thing: it's inconvenient to ask for consent all the time. Since Supreme Court is abolishing all the laws states can use to regulate guns they have to look for solutions like that. Small rules that limit the number of guns in the public places a bit. By abolishing all those rules the SC is just doing the bidding of the gun lobby and making sure people buy as many guns as possible.

    It's corruption, that's all there is to it.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I guess in addition to "No soliciting" my front door sign will also have to say "No firearms".

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago*

    Not an expert in all the laws in Hawaii or the technical way this ones written, but this seems to target places that do buisness or are otherwise open to the general public. It would be much less of an undue burden to locate the owner of a private residence before entering and obtain consent, since you kind of need that to enter a persons home legally anyway. If Hawaii rewrote this law about private houses, Id be pissed too if they overturned it.

    In the absense of that law existing though posting 'no guns' will likely be necessary as people can't follow rules they dont know exists.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    In Texas there is a law that only LEOs can carry in an establishment that makes 51% or more of its revenue from alcohol sales, and other businesses can post that firearms are not permitted. I’m curious how this ruling squares with those laws.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Because this law is about places that do not have signs. It's the question of, "I have a gun and want to go into a store, but there is no sign saying "no guns" and I can't find the owner. Who do I talk to so I can get agreement to come into the store?" This is not banning "no guns allowed" signs. It's about having to ask permission of a person who may not even live in the state to enter a place that the public is allowed to enter.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    I fucking hate people in this country.

    Like "leave the gun in your fucking car you freak" isn't an option?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I totally agree. I'm just saying the ruling isn't insane. The people who feel like they need to carry a gun everywhere they go might be insane, but having a law that says a person can't enter a public space without checking for permission to follow their constitutional right isn't a good law.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    This is to give coverage to ICE terrorists and January 6th Confederates. Bluehaired radical leftist transfolk, or anyone of decent character, should respond in kind.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    "states rights"

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Writing for the majority, Justice Samuel Alito held that Hawaii had flipped the common-law rule under which anyone, including those lawfully armed, may enter property held open to the public unless the owner withdraws consent. By requiring affirmative consent for firearms specifically, the Court reasoned, the state imposed a “new and significant burden” on permit holders, who would otherwise risk criminal liability merely by entering gas stations, restaurants, grocery stores and other everyday businesses without a posted welcome.

    So, either we're allowed to bring guns anywhere including federal buildings, or guns are only allowed to be blanket banned from buildings.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    He said 'Unless the owner withdraws consent' that does not mean everywhere or nowhere. You dont have to look hard for honest critisicm of Roberts but pretending like hes saying there are no more gun free zones isn't helping, its misinformation.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    The Hawaiian law was withdrawal of consent though.

    Gun owner: "Can I be here with my gun?"

    Business owner: "No, weapons aren't allowed here. Leave it in your vehicle."

    Roberts: "UNDUE BURDEN"

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago*

    The undue burden was finding the owner and asking him, not putting the gun away. If the place has posted rules about not allowing guns, then it is still a gun free zone. That has not changed and is stated in the article. If an owner verbally says its a gun free zone then you still have to comply as well. Its the same way you cannot get in trouble for tresspassing places where there are no signs posted, but if asked to leave upon being informed you are indeed tresspassing, you still have to leave. This is what Roberts means when he mentions the owner withdrawing consent. This ruling is fairly consistent with the precedents set throughout US law. It simply says you're allowed to be there until someone makes it know to you that your are not, instead lf having to assume you are allowed nowhere.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I don't think it realy actually has much to do with guns. It's about privacy. Something the Supreme Court has been trying to murder for the last 50 years.

    Don't get me wrong, I do see the gun owners arguments here. What's wrong with putting up a sign? That's a legitimate point. But the law itself and the Supreme Court challenge brings it into a different Realm. If the owner of a private domicile or business wants it to be different, they want to have individual decision making on a case-by-case basis, why shouldn't they? It's their private home or business and they can do what they want shouldn't they?

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