Liz comments on She's a witch!

[–] Liz@midwest.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

Being fat is a risk factor and a complicating for an alarming number of ~~considering~~ ailments. There's a reason why fat people get hammered at the doctors office about losing weight.

HOWEVER, the obesity epidemic in the US and other Western countries is a result of a fucked-up food system and an urban planning system that encourages a sedentary lifestyle. Like, individuals can choose to be less fat on their own, yes, but we're not going to make progress on this issue as a society unless we agree to change the fundamentals causing the problem.

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[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (9 children)

It's because people crave and store fats when they have fat soluble vitamin deficiencies. A lot of people have a vitamin k deficiency, vitamin e deficiency, plus other fat soluble vitamins. Over time, these deficiencies lead to various issues, esp autoimmune ones. It isn't per se due to being fat, it is because they are deficient and out of balance. But we don't try to give them vitamins, we fucking starve them as punishment for being fat, making the deficiency much worse, and wonder why they can't maintain a diet or weight loss lol

Before you even start to argue against the idea that fat soluble vitamins play a role in autoimmune disease, obesity related diseases, etc, here are some studies on Type 2 diabetes and fat soluble vitamins:

"Vitamin A: a missing link in diabetes?" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4623591/

"Association of plasma vitamin A level with type 2 diabetes mellitus: a community aging population-based cross-sectional study" "Totally, our data indicated the modifying effect of circulating lipids on the relationship between VA and T2DM. That might partly explain the discrepant conclusions in different studies regarding the association between VA nutritional status and the risk of T2DM" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213453024000909

"Combined effect of high-dose vitamin A, vitamin E supplementation, and zinc on adult patients with diabetes: A randomized trial" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090123220301223

"Effect of vitamin E intake on glycemic control and insulin resistance in diabetic patients: an updated systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials" "We found that vitamin E intake significantly reduces levels of HbA1c, fasting insulin, and HOMA-IR in diabetic patients, particularly patients with T2DM. Also, a significant reducing effect of vitamin E intake on fasting blood glucose was found in studies with an intervention duration of < 10 weeks" https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12937-023-00840-1

"Does Vitamin D Have a Role in Diabetes?" "Although the function of vitamin D in regulating blood glucose is still not fully understood, vitamin D status appears to play a role in the onset and management of diabetes mellitus" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9671203/

"What is the impact of vitamin D supplementation on glycemic control in people with type-2 diabetes: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trails" https://bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12902-022-01209-x

"Effect of vitamin K2 on type 2 diabetes mellitus: A review" "Studies showed vitamin K2 intake reduced 7% T2DM risk with each 10-μg increment" https://www.diabetesresearchclinicalpractice.com/article/S0168-8227(17)31256-1/abstract

"Vitamin K2 supplementation improves impaired glycemic homeostasis and insulin sensitivity for type 2 diabetes through gut microbiome and fecal metabolites" https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-023-02880-0

"Beneficial Effects of Vitamin K Status on Glycemic Regulation and Diabetes Mellitus: A Mini-Review" https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/8/2485

"Effects of coenzyme Q10 supplementation on glycemic control: A GRADE-assessed systematic review and dose-response meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials" "CoQ10 supplementation has beneficial effects on glycemic control, especially in diabetes" https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(22)00332-7/fulltext

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[–] Liz@midwest.social 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

Ehhhhh, people didn't suddenly develop vitamin deficiencies in the 1970s. I don't doubt they can play a role in appetite and metabolic priorities, but unless you're also trying to say that our diet has become deficient in micronutrients, it's not really a good explanation for why a perfectly healthy population steadily got fatter starting in the 1970s. Even then, the fix would be the same as what any nutritionist/dietician would do: fix the food system so that people really only have access to healthy food.

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[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

That's DDT. We sprayed so much of it that it is STILL in the ground in the soil layer to this day. We also had leaded gasoline back then. Glyphosate was invented in 1961. BPA began to be used in plastics in the 50s.PFAS began to be used in the 40s. We had widespread asbestos. Various toxic aerosols. Years of modern vehicle farming (and regular vehicle pollution) depositing heavy metals via exhaust and tires into the ground, including from leaded gasoline (was never cleaned up). And ofc mercury contamination in many areas from old gold mining practices (stopped bc of FDR and WW2), along with heavy metal toxicity from all mining practices. And more! So much more!

To fix the food system, we would have to ban vehicles and harmful pesticides from fields and bioremediate the fields for years.

And regardless, all of those toxins I listed above, have to be dealt with by the body. Which causes, you guessed it, vitamin deficiencies because your body needs them to process these poisons out. Hello, your fucking LIVER is the main storage unit for fat soluble vitamins (along with fat cells and bone marrow) because it dispatches them as needed through your lymph (aka your immune system).

Last but not least, we synthesized and understood the need for fat soluble vitamins back in the fucking 50s and before. Yes, nearly a century ago. People also ate organ meat like liver and heart back then which have substantial fat soluble vitamins in them.

Here, look:

1948: Lupus treated with vitamin e https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/521956

1979: Vitamin E effective therapy for lupus. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/759121/

2023: Lupus patients shown to have lower vitamin e, improved w vitamin e supplementation https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/immunology/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01477/full#B163

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[–] Liz@midwest.social 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

So if this is such a big issue (polition causing obesity), why doesn't the World Health Organization mention it at all? They're perfectly happy to blame putting in other areas.

Overweight and obesity result from an imbalance of energy intake (diet) and energy expenditure (physical activity).
In most cases obesity is a multifactorial disease due to obesogenic environments, psycho-social factors and genetic variants. In a subgroup of patients, single major etiological factors can be identified (medications, diseases, immobilization, iatrogenic procedures, monogenic disease/genetic syndrome).
.
The obesogenic environment exacerbating the likelihood of obesity in individuals, populations and in different settings is related to structural factors limiting the availability of healthy sustainable food at locally affordable prices, lack of safe and easy physical mobility into the daily life of all people, and absence of adequate legal and regulatory environment.
.
At the same time, the lack of an effective health system response to identify excess weight gain and fat deposition in their early stages is aggravating the progression to obesity.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/obesity-and-overweight

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[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

The WHO is delayed a little because they are such a large organization and have to be very careful with what they say.

Additionally, nutritional needs for fat soluble vitamins is supported by WHO, they have multiple PDFs about this that are hundreds of pages long. I don't like linking PDFs but you can Google.

The WHO takes all the studies I've given you already, and then decides how to publish to communicate with the public and the world. Why they choose to publish what they do - how tf would I know? I don't work for them. There is tons of evidence and studies globally for nearly, again, a century now that support this. Idk, try critically thinking and don't have things spoonfed to you, you're an adult, right?

Look, here's Cambridge asserting the same thing, surely you wouldn't dismiss Cambridge just because you have fat phobia issues, right? https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-developmental-origins-of-health-and-disease/article/abs/association-between-vitamin-levels-and-obesity-in-the-national-health-and-nutrition-examination-surveys-2017-to-2018/0D0A4769ACC80225E5DEC568B1C88884

Here's another study showing DDT causes obesity: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5915185/

You are welcome to Google all the other toxins listed plus the word obesity to learn more. I think you need the research practice, curiosity, and to stop being spoonfed, so I won't do it for you. Cmon, learn, you can do it kiddo. Let go of your eating disorder and self hatred and learn

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[–] Liz@midwest.social 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

Additionally, nutritional needs for fat soluble vitamins is supported by WHO

I never suggested you don't need fat-soluble vitamins, I suggested that vitamin deficiencies aren't the main cause in a sharp worldwide increase in obesity. From the abstract of the Cambridge paper, they only say that vitamin deficiency and obesity are correlated, and then speculate about one potential casual link. But like, the kinds of modern diets that produces obesity are traditionally missing vitamins so, it could easily just be that eating a family-size bag of Cheetos for a meal will leave you fat with malnutrition.

Here's another study showing DDT causes obesity:

Interesting study! I haven't read all of it, but this one is certainly higher quality than the other. Even this study doesn't try to claim it's all DDT and other pollutants. Still, I haven't gotten to a part where it tries to estimate an impact fraction from this and similar effects, if there is one. Measurable and meaningful are two different things.

Let go of your eating disorder and self hatred and learn

I'm not insulting you, please don't insult me. I'm here to make sure acturate and reasonable information is what we agree on, and you came in here with a theory I'd never heard of before, of course I'm going to question it. The onus is on you to make a compelling case. Regardless, supposing it is environmental pollutants making people fat (and I am convinced the effect is worth further learning on my part) it is still better to be a healthy weight. It sucks that it's harder than it used to be, and we should really not be fucking up the planet, but when it comes to taking care of your individual health, you should still aim to be a healthy weight.

I didn't bother looking at any of your other links, by the way. Drowning someone in citations and then making fun of them is a terrible way to convince them of something. I might eventually go back and see if any of your other links are any good, but probably not. I'll probably do my own literature search and see if I can get an understanding of the current opinions and when they last changed, if they have.

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[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Your first paragraph is you literally agreeing with my premise.

I'd believe you if you actually read the studies I posted and didn't just sealion nonsense. I have given a lot of evidence.

I’m here to make sure acturate and reasonable information is what we agree on

The onus is on you to make a compelling case.

I didn’t bother looking at any of your other links, by the way. Drowning someone in citations

Gee, so you're a liar. Since you clearly DON'T care about the info, I assume it is because you have some personal narrative you are protecting, and with fat phobia, that's an ED. That's not an insult. It's a condition that you are not addressing amd putting onto others, causing harm. It's also not an insult to say you refuse to learn when you yourself say you refuse to learn. I'm sure you will look for studies to confirm your ED so you don't have to change.

It is better to have adequate vitamin intake, weight is simply a side effect of that and should not be the sole focus because it is caused by existing vitamin deficiencies and restricting vitamin intake worsens it. Again causing people to break diets and gain weight back, sometimes more. Telling a person with nutritional deficiencies to withhold food to heal is like telling someone with a broken leg to walk on it to heal (ie, medical torture).

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[–] Liz@midwest.social 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

Your first paragraph is you literally agreeing with my premise.

I understood your premise to be that vitamin deficiencies cause obesity. Is that not the case? Because what I said was different.

I'm currently working my way through this lecture. It takes me a while to get through dense information, so I probably won't get back to you on my independent learning for a long time, if ever.

Cheers.

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[–] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

But like, the kinds of modern diets that produces obesity are traditionally missing vitamins so, it could easily just be that eating a family-size bag of Cheetos for a meal will leave you fat with malnutrition.

This. This chronic malnutrition overlays with environmental pressures such as sickness and toxins, which like I've literally explained thoroughly, the liver and vitamin stores then get even more depleted as they use these vitamins in your immune system to deal with this. People then crave high fat foods and gain weight chasing the small amounts of vitamins in their food. The vitamin deficiency causes the cravings. If you give them vitamins, esp vitamin k and vitamin e, they will not seek out high fat foods as much.

I have celiac disease, a fat malabsorption diease. I used to crave sticks of butter, like eating it like a chocolate bar. This (eating sticks of butter) is actually so common in people with celiac that it's one of the first things I ask about when I meet someone else with it. Now that I have proper vitamin levels, I crave yogurt, fruit, and lettuce, and biting butter makes me wanna yarf. A sign I need to supplement or eat fat soluble vitamins is if I start really craving fats.

Good luck

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[–] Liz@midwest.social 1 point 1 year ago

Okay, so I understand where our interpretations of the same information diverge, but getting into it is genuinely a philosophical argument that won't have practical value. I agree with the information you're presenting. Later!

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