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why do people get so triggered by the carnivore diet? (hackertalks.com)
submitted 3 days ago by to c/carnivore@discuss.online
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there seems to be a real emotional response by many people...

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[–] 3 points 12 hours ago (7 children)

Interestingly, it's not just the dose that makes the poison, the conditions in which you consume it too.

Many poisons even ionizing radiation can make your cells stronger and live longer through hormesis.

So you have to demonstrate that plant based foods after they are processed by cooking or fermenting are harmful to humans due to these toxins.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 child)

    It is the dose. Ionising radiation breaks DNA that won't make your cells stronger, it'll make them dead.

    Boiling, baking, fermenting can detoxify some poisons from some plants, but we appear to be able to survive for 120 years, so what's limiting that by 40 years since we invented agriculture?

    Have you seen the video about the carnivore since teenage woman running a cattle farm? She moves and looks like a healthy person in her 40s, but she was 82 when the video was made. I'll edit this with a link when I find the video

    Not the one I was thinking of but https://youtu.be/kxMLto084Pc Not this one either https://youtu.be/mnWdsEzx8F0 but probably the same person

    @silly_goose@lemmy.today updated with some links. I couldn't find the exact one I was looking for

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  • [–] 2 points 8 hours ago

    It is the dose

    Yea I agree. It's the dose, context and recovery. (I have written more in my other replies along with the example of exercise)

    woman in her 80s that looks and moves like someone in their 40s

    It's definitely possible. I have seen many who climb boulders (simple ones not bouldering sport level), carry heavy loads up and down the mountains everyday well into their 80s and 90s.

    They also look much younger and leaner. All on a mostly plant based diet. Whole grains, nuts, fungi, and legumes.

    so what's limiting that by 40 years since we invented agriculture?

    I think too much food, lack of exercise, pollution etc. The plants from modern agriculture have less nutrients and we eat very few varieties. Refined sugars and ultraprocessing of food is also up there.

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  • [–] 3 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (4 children)

    Still, why eat plants? Cooking and fermenting may neutralize some amount of some of these toxins (which, and by how much?), but how much exactly is safe?

    I'm not against taking plants for medicinal effects if necessary, but otherwise I think I'll leave my cells alone since I don't know if any intervention I can do will result in a quantifiable improvement over baseline. And why find out? We can just avoid it all.

    Personally, I'd prefer demonstration that any processed foods are safe before they are sold for public consumption. For some unfathomable reason, our society doesn't require this.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 hours ago* (3 children)

    I'm actually arguing that the phytochemicals are probably good with hormesis being one of the mechanisms.

    Observational studies with millions of people and over decades have shown plant based diets are good. Epidemiology proved the harms of many industrial chemicals, smoking and the benefits of exercise etc.

    I know carnivores reject epidemiology. But I personally find it convincing. (Along with the health benefits I have experienced)

    Interestingly I found some studies even in obligate carnivores like cats which when they go vegan have longer lifespan and healthspan.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (2 children)

    Hormesis is heavily debated. But just in general, I'm not a fan of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." What doesn't kill you generally makes you very sick.

    Epidemiology didn't prove smoking causes cancer, btw. It cannot. But the study in question that I presume you're referring to, Doll and Hill's, had a very significant relative risk finding:

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5298160/#%3A%7E%3Atext=And+what+did%2Cincreased+by+%E2%88%BC50%25.

    It showed a 45 fold increase for men smoking more than 35 cigarettes a day. In comparison, our favourite study of colorectal cancer by IARC had a RR of 1.18. In the same figures, that's a RR of 45 for smoking vs RR of 1.18 for processed meat. In percentages, that is 4500% vs 18%. And yet this is the most significant epidemiology that we have for studies in nutrition.

    An interesting aside is that Austin Bradford Hill, the Hill in "Doll and Hill", is also the person responsible for the Bradford Hill criteria . Generally, anything interesting worth investigating should have a RR of > 2. I don't reject epidemiology, btw, I think it's a good way to generate a hypothesis. But it cannot prove causality and isn't science on its own.

    You are free to draw your own conclusions, of course.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 hours ago (1 child)

    Epidemiology didn't prove smoking causes cancer, btw. It cannot

    It doesn't prove causation. I agree.

    It did show an 18% increase in risk for colorectal cancer in those that eat processed meat. It's small and maybe future studies might overturn it. But why take that risk now?

    Hormesis is heavily debated. what doesn't kill you generally makes you very sick.

    I think you do believe in certain forms of hormesis like exercise. If you look at its immediate effects, it breaks down your muscles, increases bp, stresses your liver, kidneys, bones etc. But as you recover you super compensate by growing bigger muscles, more efficient circulation and metabolism etc. Exercise makes you live better and longer. (I think carnivores also believe that)

    It's the same with other environmental and psychological stresses. It been demonstrated in studies too. It's all about Context, recovery and dosage.

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