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[–] 12 points 17 hours ago (4 children)

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

- Philip Larkin

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  • [–] -3 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

    Horrible text. Telling people to not have kids. Disgraceful, just offensive.

    If the first paragraph applies you just had bad parents or there is genuinely something wrong with the child themselves.

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  • [–] 4 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

    Why is it disgraceful and offensive? I mean, you could argue it's disgraceful if said in a militant manner in an unprompted scenario, but in a general discussion or a debate, why is it considered disgraceful and offensive?

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  • [–] 1 point 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 child)

    The logic this author is using is "you will by definition traumatize your children, thus you shouldn't have children". Not only is this completely flawed logic, because even if it were true that by definition you will traumatize your children, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have children, but it also inherently says "you will traumatize your children". So they are basically telling you that you would be a bad parent. Isn't that offensive? I understand, every parent has flaws but that's not the same as "fucking up your children".

    Apart from that, the "disgrace" remark comes from the inherent malevolence of telling people to stop procreating. Telling people to grow old living miserable lonely lives without the innate happiness of having children and being a parent. Having your own children that look up to you and (unless you are indeed a bad parent or if there is something seriously wrong with the child) will love you almost unconditionally. There is no joy greater than having children. Telling people to not experience that joy is in my opinion disgraceful.

    I can understand the economic realities that sometimes prevent the opportunity of giving your children a happy life, but that's not what this author/person is talking about.

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  • [–] 1 point 26 minutes ago*

    I would disagree with your assessment that "telling people to stop procreating" is inherently malevolent, provided it is communicated in a reasonable, rational, and well-meaning manner. I agree that attributing negative value to procreation, and a subject acting on that attribution, could potentially deprive them of the happiness they might otherwise have experienced. However, I believe that bringing a being into existence is not in that being's best interest. They are not missing out on anything, as they do not exist yet and therefore do not experience anything. So, the only one "losing" here is the parental subject, who may walk into a lonely life (which, in itself, is debatable).

    If, however, a parent brings a child into existence, they expose that child to a high likelihood of numerous adversities: depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, insomnia, hunger, poverty, asthma, accidents, bereavement, and more. Beyond these, there are also political, economic (as you alluded to), and environmental conditions that make a child's life significantly harder. Moreover, by bringing a child into existence, you are imposing on them the risk of "growing old living a miserable, lonely life"—in case they cannot have children, or do not want to, perhaps for reasoning similar to mine above.

    So, the solution you propose to avoid loneliness is to pass the question onto another being. Would it not be more favorable to not impose so much suffering on another being, just to avoid our own loneliness? If it is loneliness we wish to combat, should we not explore other suffering-free solutions?

    As for your equivalence of the poet's words and "bad parents", I interpret them slightly differently. The poet says:

    They may not mean to, but they do.

    This suggests that the act, in itself, stems from ignorance, and not malice. I do not interpret this as "bad parents", but rather as ignorant beings. Most people do not engage in the moral calculus of bringing a new being into existence; they do not assess the pros and cons of the matter. For most, they do it because it makes them happy, is socially acceptable, and increases the probability of having a safety net in their old age. This doesn't necessarily make them "bad" in my view, but rather ignorant. I find myself fortunate that I was able to weigh this before procreating. For the few who have thought about this, cannot come up with a counter-argument, and still choose to have children, I would personally consider them immoral and self-centered. For those with strong counter-arguments, I would want to hear them. Perhaps, it will change my mind on the topic as well.

    None of my views promotes violence of any kind. I am not taking this stance due to hatred of children (I do not hate them). I simply think that they enter a lose-lose scenario by coming into existence.

    ^ To anyone reading this: I am so sorry for opening up a debate in a shitpost, lol. As for the em-dash, I generated it with the compose key; these are my words, not an LLMs.

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