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[–] 1 point 18 hours ago (8 children)

The capitalist class is already in control. The MAGA wing of the capitalist class couping the Democrat wing of the capitalist class isn't a revolution, but a coup. A revolution implies a transformation in the class that dictates society, not any change in leadership.

It sounds like you’ve had your nose so buried in textbooks for so long that you can’t read the current situation, because you’re projecting what you’ve learned about prior situations in different times and different places.

I'd say you're guilty of the reverse. You have not learned from history, and because of that you cannot see how the problems of today are connected. Of course there are differences, but you have not demonstrated why these differences add up to an entirely new situation divorced from history. For example, why do you believe Allende was couped? You have not answered this, but it's core to the following point:

If we want to make the capitalist class subservient to the state, we need to elect a progressive government. That is the only way out of this mess.

You have not grasped the situation at all. Capitalists are not subservient to the state, the state is subservient to capitalists. This is not because the individuals in the state are personally handpicked by the capitalist class, but instead because whoever controls the commanding heights of the economy controls the state. A progressive government has no means by which to appropriate the commanding heights of the economy, this requires worker revolution.

You can try to convince people otherwise, but when they have similar questions to those I have asked you, and you cannot respond except by restating your hypothesis in different ways, then they will abandon your frame of view and seek those who can answer their questions. That's why Marxism-Leninism is seeing a resurgence around the world.

And yes, I am proud of myself for putting my time and money into studying socialism and organizing and educating the working class. Why wouldn't I be? All you're doing is disarming the working class and making us prey to the fascists with no ability to resist when they inevitably use their control of the commanding heights to overturn any progressive government antidemocratically.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 18 hours ago (7 children)

    You have not learned from history, and because of that you cannot see how the problems of today are connected.

    It's funny how wrong you are about that, but I'm not here to get into an intellectual dick-measuring contest with you.

    It doesn't matter why I think Allende was couped. Because this isn't Allende.

    A progressive government has no means by which to appropriate the commanding heights of the economy,

    We'll see about that.

    then they will abandon your frame of view and seek those who can answer their questions.

    To anyone who prefers Cowbee's way, go ahead and follow Cowbee. I won't try to stop you.

    To everyone else, we have work to do. And we don't have much time left to waste getting tripped up in these thorny vines. We have a path to walk.

    To anyone caught in the middle, the ravine is only going to keep widening. So if you can't choose a path, then I hope you're flexible enough to do a split without getting yourself injured.

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  • [–] 1 point 17 hours ago (6 children)

    It’s funny how wrong you are about that, but I’m not here to get into an intellectual dick-measuring contest with you.

    It doesn’t matter why I think Allende was couped. Because this isn’t Allende.

    And this is exactly why you have not learned from history. Do you think that you have a solid chance of surviving jumping off Hoover Dam without a parachute, just because today is not the same as the times when people did before? As I said, of course this isn't the exact same, but this necessarily requires proof that today is fundamentally different enough to no longer apply. We call this the difference between the generality and the particularity of a thing. Every thing has both general characteristics and particular ones, and you have not proven that the particular characteristics have changed to where the general no longer apply.

    You're stating that the US state is fundamentally unique among all states in history, not merely a particular state but one that has practically nothing in common that we can look to for analysis. That's hardly a justified view, which is why I have asked either for your analysis on Allende, or your proof that the US is significantly different enough to throw that out. You provided neither, and just restated your hypothesis.

    Contrary to what you say, the path is absolutely clear for revolution: organize the working class, and raise the level of political development of the working class. We cannot stumble blindly ahead on vibes, as you insist, but instead must take a scientific study of history, and apply analysis to our conditions today, rather than a stance of historical nihilism.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 16 hours ago (5 children)

    What you're asking for is non-falsifiable. You want me to prove to you that the future can be different from the past? That's ridiculous.

    In fact, if we're learning from history, what we should be able to see clearly is that the past isn't always indicative of the future. Because change and progress have been happening all along the way.

    You ask if there's a chance of surviving a jump off the hoover dam? I'd say sure, if the right conditions are in place for it. Base jumpers exist. Politics are more complex than a squirrel suit, but the same rule applies. All is dependent upon conditions of time and place. Which means this: context matters.

    I never claimed that the US is fundamentally unique. That's a strawman. I claimed that the future always has the potential to be different from the past. So be serious, or I'm done engaging with you.

    You claim progressive politics don't have the time or the resources or the backing to make the necessary changes? Well guess what. That applies tenfold to your proposed means.

    So it's kinda strange how you say the oligarchs are too strong and too entrenched and progressives could never defeat them. And then you go and claim we need to take actions that have even lower feasibility.

    But you accuse me of going on vibes, and you call what you do "science"? Be real.

    You have tunnel vision, and you ridicule me for being too perceptive of the particularities of the moment. You're the one stumbling blindly through darkness.

    Maybe if you pull the magnifying glass away from your eye, you'll be able to see your surroundings better.

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  • [–] 1 point 16 hours ago* (4 children)

    We both agree that there is no such thing as a static, unfixed, unmoving "thing." Conditions are always changing. However, you seem to use this more as an excuse to believe anything is possible, a rejection of analysis rather than an affirmation of it. You have reductive reasoning.

    Progressive candidates can absolutely beat liberal ones, sure. I never denied this. Where we disagree is the idea that they can translate this electorally defined power into hard power over the economy, the basis of society, in a way that goes against the very foundations of property relations within society without armed struggle and therefore revolution.

    Can you logically prove this? Why do you think this will be the first time in history a ruling class has ever peacefully relinquished control they hold, control that lies outside of the realm of electoral politics? The question isn't whether conditions are different, they absolutely are. The question is whether or not the parts that are the same do or do not influence what we have to work with today.

    You operate off of the assumption that the state exists outside of the control of the base of society, the economy. You also say that revolution has "lower feasibility" than changing the mode of production through electoralism, but revolution has done so many times while reformism has never once. Where do you base your confidence?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 16 hours ago* (3 children)

    Maybe this is our disconnect:

    You seem to be approaching this as if the goal is a USSR-like society, and so you argue that progressive politics won't achieve that.

    I agree. They won't. And I don't want them to, either. I would say most people don't want that.

    By the angle I'm approaching from, which is what I think the current zeitgeist is onboard with, is making incremental progress towards a system closer to the Nordic Model.

    There's a reason Norway has the stereotype of being one of the best places in the world to live. They enjoy an excellent quality of life. If we can achieve that in the US, I can spend the rest of my life peacefully avoiding politics, only turning up to vote in each election so that we can maintain it.

    And I believe that's possible with progressive politics. And I believe it's impossible to achieve using violence.

    So that's likely the source of our disagreement. I don't want a USSR-like society. I don't want bolsheviks to violently overthrow the civic order, plunging society into chaos so that they can reshape it into their own authoritarian wetdream.

    So if that's your goal, then I stand as firmly against you as I stand against fascism. And even if I have to walk a razor's edge to arrive safely at my destination, then my feet are gonna bleed, but I'm gonna keep fuckin walking. Because that's the only way forward that doesn't lead off a cliff.

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  • [–] 1 point 16 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (2 children)

    I don't necessarily need the USSR, I need a worker controlled society. I need socialism, where the commanding heights of the economy are socially controlled and the working class controls the state. This is incompatible with the Nordic model, which is essentially capitalist control of the state and commanding heights, but a large welfare net, one that comes from imperialism and unequal exchange. The high living standards in the Nordics come from the backs of global south labor.

    What I want is worker liberation, and an end to the dictatorship of capital. If you stand against the workers of the world, including yourself, so that you can enjoy cushy safety nets taken from the backs of the global south, then you have far more in common with fascism than I ever could.

    The fact that you do not even mention imperialism and unequal exchange while espousing the Nordic Model is precisely why we need to be serious and study socialism, rather than operate purely off of vibes and hopium. Revolutionary optimism is good, nonsense is bad.

    Also, for what it's worth, your jab at the USSR is unfounded, it was far more democratic than the Nordics are today.

    The disconnect seems to me to be that I recognize and understand imperialism as a system capitalism necessarily evolves into, and that I see the state as a product of class struggle dependent on the mode of production and distribution. You see capitalism, ironically, as a static system that can be perpetuated forever (or at least for our lifetimes) as long as we simply vote to maintain social democrats, and do not factor in that this requires the moribund system of imperialism to go on for at least a while longer despite already being on its way out.

    When you fight tooth and nail against the only group that can bring socialism, when capitalism collapses under its own weight you'll only have barbarism. You'd rather oppose a transition to socialism and have barbarism necessarily take its place.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 14 hours ago (1 child)

    Why do you think a violent revolution would result in a worker-controlled socialist society? It seems it would just result in a society dominated by whoever controls the revolution, its resources, and distribution systems.

    And the thing you gloss over is that that's precisely what tends to happen in so-called "communist" revolutions. I put communist in quotes because I know that's not true communism. But Stalin and Mao were both authoritarian dictators who centralized resources under their personal control, maintained dominance and hierarchy through their personality cults, and caused millions of deaths and widespread suffering throughout the regions under their control. To say nothing of the surveillance states they used to maintain their hold on power.

    I agree that capitalism is going to inevitably crumble, especially now that it's reached the point when it physically cannot continue to expand. However, by my view, violence and chaos are the path to barbarism.

    The purpose of building the welfare state and social safety nets now isn't to pacify the masses to enable capitalism to continue. It's to have those structures in place so that when capitalism does inevitably fall, we'll already be able to organize ourselves civilly and distribute resources in such a way that everyone has what's needful.

    The transition to socialism can and must occur. But it must happen through political means, or else all is lost. And to do so, first the welfare state must be in place.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 hours ago

    Why do you think a violent revolution would result in a worker-controlled socialist society? It seems it would just result in a society dominated by whoever controls the revolution, its resources, and distribution systems.

    There are two fundamentals I need to hammer home here, so that you can best understand my position.

    The first is the Marxist understanding of the state. The state is not a neutral body to be wielded by whatever individuals happen to work as administrators, but instead is created by the base of society, the economy, and dictated by the class that owns the commanding heights of the economy. In any class society, there are two dominant, diametrically opposed classes that form the primary class struggle, in capitalism, that's the working class and capitalist class. The capitalist class presently controls the commanding heights and the state.

    The second is the Leninist understanding of revolutionary strategy. A revolution requires, in Lenin's understanding, the following 3 conditions:

    1. A theoretically correct, disciplined, mass revolutionary socialist party trusted by the rest of the working class
    2. A millitant, politically educated working class
    3. A crisis within capitalism that leads the capitalist class unable to rule as it could before, and the working class unable to live as they were before.

    The first condition is why I always suggest organizing with a political party. Without an educated and disciplined cadre that takes under their study and practice the science of revolution, there can be no way to spread this knowledge to the rest of the working class. Class consciousness does not form spontaneously, at most it is limited to trade unionism, not an interconnected socialist struggle.

    The second condition is why socialists spend so much time trying to agitate among the people and bring them to theory. I personally, as part of my party responsibilities, have to touch grass and cold open with people about revolutionary socialism. It's uncomfortable at first, but people generally respond more positively than you'd first think. I also made an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list, which a comrade is running a reading circle for over on Hexbear. You should take a look at it and see the kind of discussion that goes on.

    The third condition is made inevitable by the structure of capitalism itself. You seem to broadly agree with it, except you still seem to think social democracy can save capitalism, up until it collapses and spontaneously turns into socialism without any organization for it, believing capitalist organization to be a swap for socialist organization. This is naive.

    And the thing you gloss over is that that’s precisely what tends to happen in so-called “communist” revolutions. I put communist in quotes because I know that’s not true communism. But Stalin and Mao were both authoritarian dictators who centralized resources under their personal control, maintained dominance and hierarchy through their personality cults, and caused millions of deaths and widespread suffering throughout the regions under their control. To say nothing of the surveillance states they used to maintain their hold on power.

    You're correct on one thing: what I advocate is precisely what has happened in socialist countries, and that's why I wish to replicate their strategy and adapt it for the conditions of the US. You are, however, trapped in Red Scare ideology masked as "common sense." The "common sense" of any society is the ideology of the ruling class. Sometimes this is benign, like the sky being blue. Sometimes this is insidious, like the reflexively ingrained propaganda reinforced by books, Hollywood, academia, and other capitalist-controlled institutions meant to demonize existing socialism.

    Stalin and Mao are both beloved in Russia and China accordingly. This is not because Russians and Chinese are lesser able to think critically, nor is it due to a chauvanist idea of brainwashing. It's instead because, under them, life expectancies doubled. Society was, counter to your point, democratized at mass as compared to Tsarism and semi-feudal society. Did you know, for example, that students often were able to pick their teachers in the Soviet Union? That children were treated not as subjects, but as active participants in society that need to actually practice self-governance in order to be equipped to run the kind of society socialism is?

    That's not to say they never made mistakes. Socialism exists in the real world, as do its real leaders. But the myth that they slaughtered millions of people like maniacal dictators is not correct. Famine from underdeveloped agriculture and mismanagement is not the same as directly engineering the slaughter of entire peoples a la Hitler and Churchill. Their names have been drug through the mud in the west because they stood to recreate society in a new form.

    In both the USSR and PRC, it was the working class that took power. Not the capitalist class, and not the aristocracy. These incredible achievements in education, literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality, equality of opportunity, the liberation of oppressed nations, all came from working class power. Not something commanded from above, but pushed from below and guided by the organized working class, the communist party.

    In any case, the idea that socialism must come from the collapse of the welfare state, with no organized group outside the system to take its place, is incredibly shortsighted. Not only does this perpetuate imperialism in the short term, which you did not counter in any way, but it also will collapse into barbarism. The organizing work done by socialists to practice for state power and train the working class on how to govern ourselves is so we can replace the capitalist state with a socialist one. We cannot simply recreate a capitalist state and hope it actually is a socialist one, the old one must be entirely replaced from the ground up with a new system.

    Different modes of production correspond to different forms of state. This isn't an accident, like liberal academics often believe it to be, but a necessity of how the state and economy reinforce each other.

    I want you to take a step back and think. How much study of existing socialist states have you done? From whose perspective? How much socialist theory have you studied? From whose perspective? And how much analysis have you done based on this study of your own contemporary conditions? All 3 of these are critical to understanding how we go from here to socialism, which will necessarily also include liberation from settler-colonialism and land back for indigenous peoples. I am asking you to make the study of social change a priority, rather than a gut feeling.

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