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[–] 7 points 3 days ago (33 children)

I lived in the south. I still remember how they treated me. It's why I moved. I couldn't get a job without being sexually harassed for being the only out trans person. I was insulted for needing medical care due to cancer and almost got double charged. I had my mail stolen. People said I was a predator. Fuck you.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 days ago* (32 children)

    None of that has anything to do with me. And I never mentioned the south.

    I did not ever treat you badly. I did not deny you a job, nor mistreat any trans person, nor insult your needs, nor mock your illness and cancer. I did not ever call you a predator. Ever. And I know this because I have always bent over backwards to treat trans people well, and to be gentle with the sick.

    But you told me, "Fuck you" just as if I had, which means that in your mind there is no difference between me -- someone who has never harmed you -- and those who have actually done you these wrongs. That's a hard way to live.

    If there was ever a poster child for why forgiveness is a great thing, you are that person.

    Forgiveness is not for the other guy, it's for you. And instead of being free to live your life of choice in your own body, you have created a prison of what others have told you and done to you to live in instead, banging against the walls of it and reliving the injustice and harm and indignity again and again any time someone says something that triggers your particular wounds. You have made an art out of taking up where your abusers left off and pointing it back at yourself again and again.

    I did not do that to you. You did that to yourself. Deal with your hate, because it is only drawing hate back to you.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago (16 children)

    ChunkMcBuddha over here raining enlightened speech on us, and unawakened minds are calling him a demon for it.

    I hear what you're saying. People are interpreting you uncharitably because pain can become a comfort zone when it's all someone has known for so long.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 days ago (15 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (5 children)

    This is politics not a marriage. Politics is a competition for resources

    How is saying things like "Texas has an evil political culture spewing malice across this country for my entire adult life, it needs to shattered into pieces, and the land salted," "Texas is the heart and soul of this evil empire, no decent person is safe as long as it exists," and "it needs to go because I will not live in fear" less than two days after it turns blue supposed to help with that?

    It sounds like you just want to vindictively genocide an entire state because a portion of that state is composed of assholes who cause problems for others. That's only going to perpetuate the cycles of hatred, violence, and suffering.

    Don't you realize a large number of Texans are hispanic? And you really want to claim they need to be "shattered into pieces" and their land salted? And you're trying to place yourself on some exceptionalist moral pedestal so you can feel superior while you say it?

    Don't become the monster you seek to destroy. Because currently, from what you're saying, it sounds like you want to turn the whole state of Texas into another Gaza. And I can't get behind that.

    Hold ICE accountable, hold the broligarchs and oil tycoons accountable, hold the talking heads accountable, hold the GOP accountable, and hold all the corrupt Texas politicians accountable. Do all that, no one here is saying not to.

    What we're saying not to do, is advocating for seemingly a genocide of the entire state of Texas. Because that's only going to fuel more fear and hatred, and make you look like the bad guy, and all those corrupt assholes will only get to ride out the victim card you're handing them by lumping all the decent people of that state into the same category as the indecent people, because your worldview is too narrow and immature to avoid such pitfalls of sweepingly broad generalizations like you're doing now.

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  • [+] 0 points 3 days ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

    Wow, you sound just like Israel. Replace "Texas" with "Palestine" and it's a 1:1 aspect ratio.

    No one is calling for a genocide, you are being hysterical to undermine my valid point

    You literally said, and I quote:

    Texas has an evil political culture spewing malice across this country for my entire adult life, it needs to shattered into pieces, and the land salted

    Texas is the heart and soul of this evil empire, no decent person is safe as long as it exists

    it needs to go because I will not live in fear

    If that's not genocidal-scale rhetoric, and I'm just being hysterical, then fucking sue me for defamation.

    Metaphorically salt the Earth

    No walksie-backsies, you said what you said.

    how do you not understand the consequences of using violence to advance Texas’s political agenda?

    So you using violence to advance your political agenda would be any different at all?

    But sure, this is about my lack of understanding... 🙄

    “Fuel more fear and hatred” what precisely did Minnesota do to Texas to make them fear and hate us? This is the epitome of DARVO

    Okay so now that you're resorting to strawman, we can confirm that you're not arguing in good faith. Because I never said nor even insinuated that Minnesota did anything to deserve what ICE brought to them.

    I want safety for my family and all Minnesotans,

    Killing everyone in Texas will not get you that.

    Texas is too violent and ugly to behave peacefully.

    Again, you're attempting to blame an entire state (one which just turned blue, I'll remind you) for the actions of the most corrupt and hateful people from among them.

    Corrupt, hateful, and malicious people exist in every state. If you continue to blame entire states for the depravity of their lowest members, then the only logical conclusion for you would be to wipe out every state one by one until there's none left.

    The line of reasoning you're following leads to a dead end, and puts you on the same moral footing as the people you hate so strongly. It can only perpetuate more cycles of hatred and violence; it can never resolve them.

    The fact that you can't see that is just sad.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 days ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago (1 child)

    I want my family and neighbors to be safe, it is not possible with Texas having any say over my life.

    That's a normal thing to want, and I'm sure Talarico will be fighting so that we can all enjoy that safety again, in every state.

    America broke for me in January and even this election did nothing to put any of the pieces back together.

    America broke for many of us, but it's time to start putting some pieces back together. The election didn't do it for us, but it gives us the opportunity to start. It will take some time, but if we don't start then we'll never finish either.

    You can either join us in putting the pieces back together, or reinforce the cycles of brokenness, or even sit on the sidelines and pretend to be morally absolved of any personal responsibility in the matter. That's your choice, I won't make it for you.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago (8 children)

    Texas did all this? What are you talking about? Yeah it's a large population center but Ted Cruz is Canadian and Trumpf is from NYC. Idk what your logic is to somehow restrict an international hate/populist movement geographically to one (admittedly egotistical) state, but judging by your account age and name I'm going to assume you're a bot or another paid ruzzian actor. Hope the FSB, PRC, or DPRK pays you well.

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  • [+] 0 points 3 days ago (6 children)
  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago (5 children)

    Ah yes, the monolith known as "Texas," also apparently a sentient entity capable of exercising conscious agency. What a joke.

    You're demonizing them the same way magas demonize everyone they hate, the same way Israel demonizes Palestine. When you use the same logic is the fascist oppressors, you're not better than them. You're exactly the same.

    Enjoy our hockey team you joke of a society and leave us the fuck alone.

    Spoken like a true Texan (except for them it might be college football or something; same shit different ball).

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  • [+] 0 points 3 days ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago (3 children)

    Since you continue to entirely miss the point which everyone else here sees clearly, I've already said all I need to.

    I'm not telling you to tolerate ICE or any fascists. I'm telling you to stop generalizing and advocating for the destruction of an entire diverse state.

    but I can’t be in the same country as yall.

    I'm not from Texas. I've never even been there. It's not too hard to have empathy and not be a genocidal maniac even when you're not from somewhere

    Hockey is played with a puck not a ball.

    Oh, that makes such a big difference in this conversation 🙄

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  • [+] -1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (15 children)
  • [–] 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (14 children)

    I’ve done nothing wrong so cry about it.

    Yes, you did. You took your righteous anger at others and aimed it at me, someone who never harmed you. Just as others mistreated you without cause, you decided to be like them and do it yourself to an online stranger, thinking I'd be a good punching bag because I mentioned forgiveness in a positive light and you got triggered.

    Explain how you're different than the people who mistreated you? Because I'm not seeing it. The only difference is the recipient: you seem fine with dishing it out at strangers yourself.

    Funny how someone who adamantly does not believe in forgiveness is ordering me to "get over it." You mean I should forgive.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (5 children)

    This is Twitter energy. I don't owe anyone forgiveness and telling me I have to forgive people without knowing my situation is a dick move. I owe you nothing nor do I care if you forgive me.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago (4 children)

    What the other user is saying is that you owe yourself forgiveness. Not for anyone else's benefit. Not for their benefit nor for the benefit of your past abusers. For your benefit.

    Maybe someday you'll see through this cloud of pain and understand what that person is trying to tell you, instead of hearing echos of your wounds and seeing phantoms of the people who hurt you in the past.

    I hope you see the sunshine again, and the open skies.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

    What benefit do you get from forgiving abuse? To forgive is to accept. You should not dwell on the past and hurt yourself unnecessarily, but you should not accept others hurting you either. You can (and should!) move past thinking about past harms, but that does not require forgiveness.

    (Related: This is why "getting over it" is not the same as forgiveness like Chunk suggests)

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago (2 children)

    I think the key breakdown here is that we're disagreeing on the meaning of forgiveness.

    You say "To forgive is to accept." I disagree with that. You can forgive a wrong without accepting it. Because forgiveness isn't for the other person, it's for you. In other words, the benefit isn't for the forgiven, it's for the forgiver.

    You say "You should not dwell on the past" and "You should move past thinking about past harms, but that does not require forgiveness." I disagree. In my view, that's what forgiveness is, in a certain sense.

    You might be able to avoid thinking about the pain of the past, but unless you forgive, that pain is still buried deep somewhere inside you. You're just bottling up the emotions, and they find subconscious ways of seeping out into your moods, your perceptions, your behavior, your habits, and your interactions with others.

    Forgiveness is when you pull that pain out by the root. It's when you remove the pea from under the mattress instead of merely stacking more cushions on it. It's taking the pebble out of your shoe.

    "Getting over it" is a cope. It's what we tell ourselves when what we really mean is "don't think about it, pretend it's not there." Forgiveness isn't about merely coping, it's about healing.

    You can still hold people accountable. You can still feel righteous indignation towards wrongdoers. Just don't make your personal happiness contingent on retribution.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago (7 children)

    You are opposing the very concept of accountability. Bunny is treating you like the people who hurt them because you stand on the sidelines and champion the idea that those people should be forgiven. But to forgive someone who continues to hurt you is to allow that harm, and to encourage Bunny to allow themselves to be harmed is deeply wrong. The idea that you should not resist harm is equivalent to the idea that you have no right to be unharmed.

    "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -MLK

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago (5 children)

    That's not what they're saying though.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago (4 children)

    Could you explain how you interpret their point then? Maybe I'm missing something...?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 days ago (3 children)

    He's not saying to forgive the people who hurt you so that they can evade accountability. You can forgive them, and they can still be held accountable and prevented from doing further harm. Those aren't mutually exclusive options.

    When we forgive, in the way that ChunkMcHorkle is describing, we liberate ourselves from the pain of our past that we've been carrying around like chains for so long. That pain that we carry is a shackle to us, and it prevents us from fully living.

    To hold onto that pain, to stay chained to it, is to give a victory to your abusers. Spite them by living fully, living freely, by being capable of experiencing joy and love again. Those are the things they took away from you. Take them back.

    We can still hold wrongdoers accountable, but we don't have to wait to see them in jail before we can be happy. That is all they're saying.

    And also, a little bit of how when you think you're attacking them, what you're really attacking is a ghost from your past, which you see hovering in front of them. It's a form of projection. What you're projecting is the pain you carry; and what you see instead of the person in front of you, is an image of the people who hurt you.

    There are lots of assholes in Texas. No one here is denying that. But what Texas proved the other day, is that there are decent people there too. Hold the assholes accountable, but don't hate the decent people just for being from the same state. That's all

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago (2 children)

    I think this might be a terminology issue then. The phrase I would use for what you're describing is "moving on", not "forgiving". Those are two very different things, and if your interpretation is true, that pretty much explains the entire disagreement here. Is using "forgive" in this way common where you are? It seems vaguely adjacent to the way it's used in some religious contexts.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago (1 child)

    What you're describing as forgiveness sounds closer to reconciliation or even toleration.

    Here, you may find this illumining:

    https://philpapers.org/archive/EMEFAR.pdf

    Emerick, Barrett (2017). Forgiveness and Reconciliation. In Kathryn J. Norlock, The Moral Psychology of Forgiveness. Rowman & Littlefield International. pp. 117-134.

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