schipelblorp comments on Revolution.

[–] schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works -3 points 3 weeks ago (10 children)

Yes, it's very pretty and also very theoretical. We had slavery, genocide, and the war to end slavery was actually a violation of the principle of self governance you yourself quote (though I would be in favor).

They were desperately looking for a right to self-governance in an age of kings, so they found one. That's cool. But a country should be judged by its actions, not its propaganda and internal mythology.

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[–] Godric@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

Evil also came about, yes. Not to dismiss it, but if a nation's legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.

And I think you're missing the point. This wasn't just some "huh, not being slaves to the king would be a neat change" theory some guy wrote down, these were intensely radical, new ideas about what it means to be a human that people took up arms over, that changed the world forever. "They did bad, too, so let's ignore the good" is a wild black and white way to view history, that utterly discounts how radical and world-shaking the ideas behind the American Revolution are. We're a quarter millenia steeped in those ideals, so we take them for granted, like that's the way the world always was.

The IMMENSE changes in human philosophy and governance the American Revolution brought about absolutely deserves celebration!

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[–] schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works -3 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

"Yes, evil came about" lol

America was the first, but the philosophical foundations had been laid in Europe. It's not like nobody would have figured it out without God himself revealing the Declaration of Independence to Thomas Jefferson on the heights of Guan or whatever. Get over yourself.

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[–] Godric@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

but if a nation's legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.

You forgot to answer that!

And would it be reasonable to discount Isaac Newton's contributions to mathematics because "its not like nobody would have figured it out without God..."? Actually doing the thing matters.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The ideas and ideals the American Revolution brought to the world (not always practiced as preached) are absolutely world shaking and inspiring. While I know 'america bad' is fashionable, we really should think about what the American Revolution, where tens of thousands fought and died for the first war ever fought for the unalienable rights of all mankind, philosophically meant to the world.

This is a nation not founded on a shared ancestry, a shared religion, or a shared history, this is a nation founded on some of the most amazing Ideals in human history, even if they're not lived up to. Neither fascist dishonestly abusing the flag to destroy its meaning nor flippant doomer will make me not love Life, Love, and Pursuit of Happiness, and I will celebrate and aspire to the ideals this country was founded upon.

I encourage anyone and everyone to watch Ken Burns' civil war, you just might have your mind expanded!

https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-american-revolution (Also give PBS a couple bucks, they need it)

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[–] schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works -2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (6 children)

While I know ‘america bad’ is fashionable, we really should think about what the American Revolution, where tens of thousands fought and died for the first war ever fought for the unalienable rights of all mankind, philosophically meant to the world.

Jesus Fucking Christ, do you actually believe that shit? We fought the war because we didn't want to pay taxes.

I'm not saying that it's not great that we came up with a cool justification for it, but, again, I repeat, the philosophical foundations had been laid in Europe, and the United States was just the first convenient location for those ideas to flower. Don't confuse the soil for the seed.

Ashokan Farewell is a frequent earworm of mine, though Shelby Foote desperately needed some pushback.

Edit: Oh, revolutionary war. Yeah. I might have to watch it. You do realize Ken Burns, like all documentarians, has a definite point of view he's trying to get across? Seems like he's very successful at communicating his.

Edit 2: I'm not saying other countries aren't drenched in blood, but so what? We're talking about elevating one of the last states to abolish slavery and built upon genocide as one of the Shining Stars and that's garbage.

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[–] Godric@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

but if a nation's legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.

You forgot to answer that, again!

I think that "The war was fought for tax reasons" is a wildly reductive, surface level stoner psuedointellectual interpretation of the American Revolution. It's like claiming Jan 6 was just tourists going for a walk, or WW2 was just some disagreements about borders; it was much, much bigger than that, you can't just reduce something so complex into a snappy one-liner.

I'm not confusing soil and seed, you're confusing inspiration with creation. Once again, should we discount Isaac Newton's contributions to mathematics because someone would have done it eventually, or because someone did math before him? Should Americans take direct credit for the French Revolution? We violently opposed kings first, after all.

You really should learn more about the American Revolution, gice the doc a watch! Fascists want people hopeless and ignorant that this country was founded upon some of the most wonderful ideals humanity ever had, ideals worth fighting for and aspiring to.

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[–] schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works -1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

I find Langston Hughes' America a great poem about this exact issue, and that's the right context for the discussion.

As for the the true causes of war, I think it's you who have simplified things with your teary-eyed flag waving. Sure, things are complex, but mythology and propaganda should not be swallowed whole.

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[–] Godric@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

He is an excellent poet, and "And yet I swear this oath— America will be!" is exactly that realization of the ideals this country was founded on.

It's not "teary eyed flag-waving" to celebrate the death of authoritarianism, the birth of modern democracy, and the deeply idealistic legacy of the American Revolution, ideals all people of the world, not just Americans, should fight for.

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[–] schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works -1 points 3 weeks ago

I guess it's a bit like religion for me. If you start talking about loving one another, you're good. But as soon as you bring Jesus and God into it, things get all fucked up and people start serving their own conception of god instead of actually loving one another.

For this discussion, it's glorifying the United States ahead of the ideals on which it's founded that is the problem. It often leads to people justifying all kinds of imperial horrors exactly counter to those same ideals. I prefer to shit on the United States and the flag, and every form of patriotism, and the people who remain are the people worth talking to.

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[–] pebbles@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

We're talking about elevating one of the last states to abolish slavery and built upon genocide as one of the Shining Stars and that's garbage.

This looks like the disconnect.

I don't think the other commenter is talking about elevating the US. They are defending celebrating the US's fight for independence and it's effect on culture across the world.

I highly doubt anyone would defend the US as a whole.

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[–] Godric@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

You are 99% right, I am talking about immense, world-shaking philosophical change the American Revolution brought humanity that deserves to be celebrated.

In regards to the countries, I grade on a scale. The other fellow doggedly ignores:

but if a nation's legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.

I personally think no country is innocent. That can get us into a whole different rabbit hole on the nature of power, state legitimization of force, anarchism, etc., which is not the topic of this shitpost!

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