This is going to be a fun one.

So here are the facts:

I commented on a news article about a mother and adult son charged with incest (and adultery as well for her.) This is what I said:

Someone responded to me and I replied before I realized my original comment was removed for being inappropriate. Then I added the edit when I saw.

The next day I discovered I'd been banned from that community for "pro-incest comments" and several others I don't think I've ever been in for rule 4 violations. The orignal post was removed.

You can see those here:

Site rule 4 is: Usernames or posts/comments containing transphobia, homophobia, sexism, racism, ableism, zionism, anti-veganism, or trivializing COVID. No self-described or obvious fascists, conservatives, or reactionaries.

My comments had none of those things. I'd even go so far as to say my banning was reactionary.

Now, I'm not defending incest, especially not for myself. My problem is with puritanical laws interfering with the private sex lives of people. In my original comment I stated that grooming was a separate issue and should be dealt with, but that there is nothing inherently wrong with incest. That is, enthusiastic consensual sex between capable adults.

I know someone will bring up the Hapsburgs, so yes, children of incest should be avoided.

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[–] 102 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (96 children)

Leaving aside whether the rule was the right one to use, I will stress that, when it comes to incest, the power dynamics in play make consent dubious at best. This is doubly so for parent/child incest, such as the case you were talking about.

This is a weird hill. Are you sure you want to die on it?

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 1 month ago (94 children)

    Won't die on it. Still think it's weird to be banned for it.

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  • [–] 46 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    By making this post, you are still fighting on it.

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I think a permanent ban was unjustified, yes.

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  • [–] 27 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Your permanent ban for defending incest, a situation that is widely agreed to be an abuse of trust in any configuration, thus making consent dubious. Specifically, your response defending a woman who fucked her son, suggesting grooming to be at play.

    Once again, is this a cause you want to keep fighting for? Or do you want to just take the damn L already?

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I specifically said she was likely grooming her son, which is bad. I'm against incest being a crime.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (1 child)

    After nearly a full day of inactivity where people lived their damn lives, you came back to offer nothing new, yet you keep trying to nitpick your way into an argument. Why is this so important to you?

    Actually, no, don't answer. Just stay on your weird family-fucking hill until you die on it, as you so obviously want to. I'm done with you.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago* (79 children)

    In a lot of people's mind there can't possibly be consent so it's simply rape which makes you a pro rape advocate. If that makes it make a little more sense to you.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 month ago (78 children)

    That's a hell of a long walk to call me a pro-rape advocate. No, that doesn't make sense to me.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 1 month ago (76 children)
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  • [–] [S] 19 points 1 month ago (33 children)

    That's called a bad faith argument. I stated in my comments that people need to be capable of and enthusiastically consenting.

    I'm opposed to overreaching laws based on ideas about sexual purity.

    For instance, under Canadian law, two people who don't know they're blood relatives who begin a sexual relationship can be guilty of incest if they later learn that they're related and continue that relationship. And that seems insane to me.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    Two adults, raised by different families, enter into a relationship. 10 years later, they find they are biological half-siblings from the same sperm donor. Does this constitute incest? What interest does the state have in criminalizing the continuation of this stable, long-term relationship?

    You ask for a line, but you described the proper line:

    The power Imbalance is too too far skewed.

    The line is not drawn on the biological relationship between the parties. The line is drawn on the formalized social structures in place at the commencement of the physical relationship.

    Prohibit a relationship between parent and child, while recognizing that, being separated for the entire childhood, the social structure of "parent" and "child" never actually existed. While there is a biological kinship in such a relationship, there is no power imbalance to criminalize.

    It should include a fairly short statute of limitations. Prohibit a student/teacher relationship for example, but don't come back 20 years into the relationship to jail the (former) teacher.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (21 children)

    I think the ban isn’t far enough you should probably be instance banned for trying to normalize gross and quite honestly criminal behavior.

    That is the same language used by anti-miscegenists, homophobes, TERFs...

    So no lines,

    No, I specifically described a line, the exact line that you drew. I quoted it and everything.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    For good reason

    Yeah you said it's gross. Everyone knows if people think something is gross, it should be illegal.

    That's the base of your argument. You think it's gross and are grasping at straws to justify banning it. You don't actually have supporting arguments.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Way to not read the things that disagree with you. Congrats.

    Cool let's talk about a specific incest law you want repealed and we'll discuss it and figure out why you want it repealed.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (16 children)

    Correct, we're talking about today after all. You seem to be implying it's a form of bigotry rather than a cross continent commonality for good reason. Ie. They noticed kids kept coming out messed up when people are increasingly related.

    Bro your word salad of examples and pundit wording makes no sense. The power dynamic hasn't and doesn't change and that ignores the fact that interfamily births are riddled with birth defects. Why you feel the need to bring up homosexuality alongside beastiality is baffling to me but at least to me sounds really really gross.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    It isn't. No one is against either person but a relationship that causes actual physical societal baggage ie birth defects and familial rape.

    Why the fuck would you want it legal for a father to fuck their child because let's be clear the person your interjecting yourself with says no form of incest should be illegal as long as they're "of age" and who knows what that actually equals given some states or was like 14 until recently.

    Weird hill to die on, weird bedfellow to choose.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    It isn’t.

    I understand your unsupported opinion. I feel I've adequately demonstrated mine.

    a relationship that causes actual physical societal baggage ie birth defects

    Sorry, I've already conceded the birth defects issue, but that only affects a procreative relationship. I've asked you to consider a non-procreative relationship.

    and familial rape

    Rape is already criminalized, regardless of the legal status of incest. Decriminalizing incest does not in any way affect the criminalization of familial rape.

    Why the fuck would you want it legal for a father to fuck their child

    Where did I say anything of the sort? That relationship violates the power imbalance standard. Incest does not need to be criminalized for that relationship to be prohibited.

    no form of incest should be illegal as long as they’re “of age” and who knows what that actually equals given some states or was like 14 until recently.

    I feel that is not at all a reasonable representation of OP's position. OP made no argument about a 14-year-old. This topic is too sensitive to tolerate less-than-genuine representations of each other's arguments.

    Please engage honestly, earnestly, and in good faith, or don't engage at all.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    That's simply dishonest. OP clearly specified only cases where capability and consent are present. You are deliberately misrepresenting them. You are making a strawman argument: the point you are trying to make exists solely within your own head.

    Engage in good faith, or do not engage at all.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    I see. OP used the phrase "old enough", and you think that refers to something other than "old enough".

    We aren't having a discussion on the appropriate age of consent. We are having a discussion on incest. We will not be considering any participant unless YOU deem them "old enough". We will only be talking about people that meet your definition of "old enough". Feel free to raise the age of consent to 21, 25, 47. Whatever you deem an appropriate age is the age we will be using.

    Insisting that OP is referring to underage individuals when they say "old enough" is intellectually dishonest. Engage in good faith, or don't engage at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    "Old enough" is sufficiently specific for you to assume "old enough". Assuming anything less than "old enough" from the phrase "old enough" is a bad faith argument.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Nah, I didn't abandon anything. I've presented my whole argument, and I've adequately rebutted every point you've made. You have yet to provide any sort of justification for intruding on personal agency of competent adults. You've yet to provide any compelling state interest for interfering with freedom of association, both of which are necessary for criminalizing behavior.

    We got hung up on age because you have insisted on inserting insinuations of pedophilia where underage participants are explicitly excluded.

    I had a much better discussion elsewhere in this thread, where we were able to delve deeper into more important issues. The principal difference between that conversation and this one is that (for the most part) the parties argued in good faith, rather than assuming malfeasance. I don't think either of us convinced the other, but we did more broadly address the topic, rather than getting ourselves hung up on a pedantic discussion of an inconsequential phrase.

    I feel this conversation has devolved to a point where no further insight is forthcoming. Thanks for playing.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (36 children)

    what is the motivation here?

    The same reason a white person with a white partner would argue against anti-miscegenation laws: They are wrong, and they are needlessly harmful.

    The same reason a straight person would argue against homosexuality prohibitions: They are wrong, and they are needlessly harmful.

    The same reason a cishet person would argue against transphobic laws: They are wrong, and they are needlessly harmful.

    You don't have to be in a miscegenated, homosexual relationship with your trans half-sister to realize that the public and the state has no valid interest for interfering in the free association of capable, consenting persons. Such interference is wrong, and needlessly harmful.

    By all means, ensure that any such association is freely entered. Ensure that the individual participants are capable. Ensure that the individual participants are consenting. Once those three criteria are met, the public is free to speak its mind, but it is not free to arrest or otherwise interfere.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (34 children)

    I have been very clear in my arguments that the relationship you describe is not and should not be lawful. I have been very clear that the reason it is not and should not be lawful is due to the power imbalance in the parties you describe. I have been very clear that the biological kinship of the parties you describe is not at all relevant to the illegality of the scenario.

    Your comment here does not seem to be based on a desire for genuine discussion, but rather an ad hominem attack. Should you wish to raise a genuine argument, I'll be happy to discuss. Otherwise, I do not intend any further engagement.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (32 children)

    Two individuals enter into a relationship. 5 years later, they determine they were half siblings, born to different mothers via artificial insemination from the same donor. The did not know of eachother until they were both adults; they did not know they were biologically related until long after they were in a relationship.

    Justify criminalizing the individuals in this relationship. Give me a compelling reason why these two individuals should be imprisoned. When you can provide a compelling rational reason why the state should criminalize these individuals, you will have convinced me. Until you can do that, you're not actually discussing incest. You're discussing a power imbalance established not by biological kinship, but by social familial structure.

    I have long conceded that the circumstance you are talking about should not be tolerated, but that the circumstance you are talking about does not arise due to incest.

    The same circumstance you describe is present in a step-parent/step-child relationship. That same circumstance is just as problematic and for the same reasons as the scenario you describe, but that circumstance does not actually constitute incest. Whatever method you use to ban the improper step-parent relationship is more than sufficient for banning the improper parent relationship.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (31 children)

    They aren't automatically imprisoned in the in us or Canada as per your example. You seem to be getting upset about situations that are already handled to favor the unknowing participant even if that is both of them. No we're still discussing incest were just not discussing extreme hypotheticals that already have mechanisms to deal with. Going along with the "incest should be legal" guy is a weird route to take if you don't actually believe it shouldn't be illegal.

    Your new nonsensical example are not blood relatives, which is gross and immoral but it actually cuts against your argument given it isn't illegal but still gross and immoral.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (30 children)

    Your new nonsensical example are not blood relatives, which is gross and immoral but it actually cuts against your argument given it isn’t illegal but still gross and immoral.

    Quite the contrary, it cuts against your argument. Your argument ensnares inoffensive relationships in an attempt to capture gross and immoral relationships. Your argument ignores functionally identical gross and immoral relationships, because they don't technically qualify as the kind of relationships you were thinking of.

    Just because some relationships are gross and immoral doesn't mean that we need to criminalize every relationship. We can go ahead and criminalize the "gross and immoral" relationships, without criminalizing the inoffensive relationships. We can draw a more logical, more rational, more effective distinction than "biologically related".

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (28 children)

    There are specific circumstances - which can arise in any sort of relationship, including incestuous - that should be criminalized. Barring such specific circumstances, incest should not be illegal.

    I've provided numerous examples of inoffensive relationships that qualify as incestuous, including Genetic Sexual Attraction and Accidental Incest. These inoffensive relationships are those lacking any of the "specific circumstances" that would be criminal.

    I've also provided or addressed a variety of "special circumstances" that should be criminalized - circumstances that may exist with or without an incestuous relationship, and should be criminalized regardless.

    It is these "special circumstances" that should be illegal. Not the generalized relationship.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (26 children)

    Your last argument reflects neither OP's position, nor mine. It is a strawman that exists entirely within your own head.

    OP's argument explicitly applies only to situations where both capacity and consent are present. Any case of "rape" requires the absence of at least one of these conditions.

    Engage in good faith, or do not engage at all.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (24 children)

    You say "horseshit" like you're disagreeing with me, but then you specifically cite text/images that demonstrate my argument and refute your own point about "rape".

    In each of your citations, OP specifically refers to "capable" and "consent". OP is specifically referring to scenarios where "consent" is not in question. Your arguments about "rape" are outside the scope the OP described. OP is clearly not talking about rape.

    literal Father daughter mother son incest.

    In one of your citations, OP explicitly states that grooming should be illegal. Grooming is a separate crime.

    Grooming involves a power imbalance, such as student/teacher, coach/athlete, doctor/patient, jailer/inmate, and yes, parent/child, where the parent raised the child as a minor. Under grooming laws, the social inferior is not deemed capable of consent. OP is not proposing the scenario you are talking about. The scenario you're talking about is already criminalized without incest laws.

    I've posed this before, and nobody has yet to respond to it: Genetic Sexual Attraction is a widespread phenomenon well known to those familiar with adoption, where upon reunification as an adult, an adoptee and the biological kin of that adoptee develop strong sexual attraction toward eachother. This same phenomenon has been found to be common among half-siblings of the same sperm donor. With separated full siblings. With "Kissing Cousins" who rarely interact as children.

    What legitimate interest does society and the state have in suspending the right of free association and criminalizing these individuals?

    Moreover what your describing is in general already the way the system works

    It's not. Even consensual incest between capable adults is criminalized, much in the same way that homosxuality between consenting adults was previously criminalized.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (22 children)

    They don’t make that distinction,

    They do. You cited them using the phrase "old enough".

    It’s statutory rape under 18 bud.

    Then "under 18" is clearly not "old enough".

    I don't know why you're having so many problems with this. The phrase "old enough" left no room for you to argue lack of capacity due to age. Perhaps if you started engaging in good faith, this would be a more productive discussion.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (20 children)

    Bad faith argument. Rejected. "Old Enough" is sufficiently descriptive to reject your insinuations of pedophilia.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    Any reasonable, hypothetical person, hearing the phrase "old enough" would assume an age where the individual had acquired the requisite mental capacity. Any assumption of a lesser age is simply unreasonable.

    Where the assuming party has been granted full license to adopt any reasonable meaning they want, refusal to do so is simply in support of a bad faith argument.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    A 14-year-old having sex with an 18-year-old is still statutory rape, with or without the law on incest. That doesn't change. We aren't talking about pedophilia; we aren't talking about age of consent; we aren't talking about statutory rape, or rape of any kind.

    The median age of first sexual contact is 14, with another 14-year-old. It's a fair bet that when you were a minor, you had sex with other minors.

    Two 14-year-olds having sex with eachother is not pedophilia; it's not statutory rape. There are no criminal penalties for two 14-year-olds choosing to have sex with eachother. Unless they are related by blood. Then, they can be sent to state prison. This is bigotry.

    Two 24-year-olds, being well above the age of consent, there is no serious question that they are "old enough". They are capable of consent, and consent is granted. Completely inoffensive relationship; the state has no interest in intervening between them. And yet, if they discover they are biological kin, they are to be imprisoned. This is bigotry.

    The pedophilic insinuations you are making play no role here. They serve only to distract. And yet you keep raising them, again and again. You insist on this unreasonable assumption that "old enough" doesn't actually mean "old enough", to distract and detract from the underlying issue. Engage in good faith, or don't engage at all. Discuss the same-age couples above. Justify the california law calling for them to be imprisoned. Justify depriving them of their right to free association. Justify stripping them of their personal agency regarding consent. Justify leaving their future to the whim of judicial discretion.

    Or concede that incest should not be an inherently criminal matter.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    We don’t assume people wanting to take part in incest are altogether reasonable, logical or for that matter moral so assuming any of those things is the unreasonable thing to do.

    That is a rhetorical fallacy called "begging the question". Rejected.

    you simply assume benevolence when there’s no evidence that that is the case.

    In the field of philosophy, "Hanlon's Razor" is the most relevant concept. In law, it's called the "pro reo principle" or the "rule of lenity". Related, the idea of "innocent until proven guilty". We should, indeed, assume benevolence until malfeasance is positively proven.

    Basically, reasonableness is the default state. We don't need any sort of evidence to assume reasonableness. We need evidence to demonstrate unreasonableness.

    Here, that means "old enough" is, actually, what any reasonable person would deem old enough. OP is not making any sort of argument regarding the current age of consent laws. OP's argument is that, whatever society deems an appropriate age of consent, an incestuous relationship initiated above that age of consent (with capacity and with consent) should also be legal.

    But again what happened to the rest of your argument and all those non existent fringe cases that are already legal in North America?

    They certainly exist. Marriage, for example, has a wide variety of financial and legal benefits and consequences. Incestuous marriage is criminal. I don't need to provide a full, comprehensive list of all the ways that criminalizing incest affects every possible victim of anti-incestuous bigotry. Any social or legal distinction is sufficient to question the need for that distinction.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Uh huh. Californias law starts at 14 so what do you have to say about that?

    It doesn't. You're misreading the incest statute as the age of consent statute. Nothing in the incest statute allows an 18-year-old to have sex with a 14-year-old. That is statutory rape, with or without incest laws or incest being a factor. The minor lacked the capacity to consent to sex with the adult.

    Minors do not lack the capacity to consent to sex with other minors. There is no issue of capacity between two 14-year-olds. There is no criminality in such a relationship. Unless the 14-year-olds are related; then they are to be imprisoned. As are the 24-year-old couple. As are the 57-year-old couple.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (5 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Bad faith argument. None of that is being challenged. Have a good day.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Problem is that the law is based on morals rather than damage. SA is illegaland grooming is illegal, why does incest need to be illegal in addition?

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  • [–] [S] 10 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Weirdly enough, I wrote a paper in philosophy about the puritanical reasons things like incest, adultery and sodomy are illegal.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Then incest is only bad if the intent is procreation. If two sterile adults who also happen to be related have a bit of consensual sex, what's the issue?

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