This is going to be a fun one.

So here are the facts:

I commented on a news article about a mother and adult son charged with incest (and adultery as well for her.) This is what I said:

Someone responded to me and I replied before I realized my original comment was removed for being inappropriate. Then I added the edit when I saw.

The next day I discovered I'd been banned from that community for "pro-incest comments" and several others I don't think I've ever been in for rule 4 violations. The orignal post was removed.

You can see those here:

Site rule 4 is: Usernames or posts/comments containing transphobia, homophobia, sexism, racism, ableism, zionism, anti-veganism, or trivializing COVID. No self-described or obvious fascists, conservatives, or reactionaries.

My comments had none of those things. I'd even go so far as to say my banning was reactionary.

Now, I'm not defending incest, especially not for myself. My problem is with puritanical laws interfering with the private sex lives of people. In my original comment I stated that grooming was a separate issue and should be dealt with, but that there is nothing inherently wrong with incest. That is, enthusiastic consensual sex between capable adults.

I know someone will bring up the Hapsburgs, so yes, children of incest should be avoided.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [S] 19 points 1 month ago (33 children)

That's called a bad faith argument. I stated in my comments that people need to be capable of and enthusiastically consenting.

I'm opposed to overreaching laws based on ideas about sexual purity.

For instance, under Canadian law, two people who don't know they're blood relatives who begin a sexual relationship can be guilty of incest if they later learn that they're related and continue that relationship. And that seems insane to me.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 33 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (31 children)

    They literally could not consent for the same reasons consent in statutory rape. The power Imbalance is too too far skewed.

    So you draw any limits to incest. Same legal age siblings. Mother son, father daughter, grandparent grandchild? Or where when and how do you draw your line.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 31 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    Two adults, raised by different families, enter into a relationship. 10 years later, they find they are biological half-siblings from the same sperm donor. Does this constitute incest? What interest does the state have in criminalizing the continuation of this stable, long-term relationship?

    You ask for a line, but you described the proper line:

    The power Imbalance is too too far skewed.

    The line is not drawn on the biological relationship between the parties. The line is drawn on the formalized social structures in place at the commencement of the physical relationship.

    Prohibit a relationship between parent and child, while recognizing that, being separated for the entire childhood, the social structure of "parent" and "child" never actually existed. While there is a biological kinship in such a relationship, there is no power imbalance to criminalize.

    It should include a fairly short statute of limitations. Prohibit a student/teacher relationship for example, but don't come back 20 years into the relationship to jail the (former) teacher.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 23 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (22 children)

    So no lines, you believe n it should be legal to fuck your child?

    I think the ban isn't far enough you should probably be instance banned for trying to normalize gross and quite honestly criminal behavior.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 22 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (21 children)

    I think the ban isn’t far enough you should probably be instance banned for trying to normalize gross and quite honestly criminal behavior.

    That is the same language used by anti-miscegenists, homophobes, TERFs...

    So no lines,

    No, I specifically described a line, the exact line that you drew. I quoted it and everything.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 21 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (20 children)

    All of your examples sans terfs which I think you just randomly threw in are consenting adults without an intrinsic power dynamic.

    No my line is it is illegal for good reason.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 20 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    For good reason

    Yeah you said it's gross. Everyone knows if people think something is gross, it should be illegal.

    That's the base of your argument. You think it's gross and are grasping at straws to justify banning it. You don't actually have supporting arguments.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Way to not read the things that disagree with you. Congrats.

    Cool let's talk about a specific incest law you want repealed and we'll discuss it and figure out why you want it repealed.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (17 children)

    All of your examples sans terfs which I think you just randomly threw in are consenting adults without an intrinsic power dynamic.

    They are today.

    In the past, the power dynamic between the participants was the same as that present in bestiality. Homosexuals were considered mentally incompetent. Minorities were considered inhuman. Your argument is only valid after the parties were actually considered equal and competent, but that supposition also defeats your argument here.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 17 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (16 children)

    Correct, we're talking about today after all. You seem to be implying it's a form of bigotry rather than a cross continent commonality for good reason. Ie. They noticed kids kept coming out messed up when people are increasingly related.

    Bro your word salad of examples and pundit wording makes no sense. The power dynamic hasn't and doesn't change and that ignores the fact that interfamily births are riddled with birth defects. Why you feel the need to bring up homosexuality alongside beastiality is baffling to me but at least to me sounds really really gross.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 16 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    You seem to be implying it’s a form of bigotry

    I'm not implying. It is, indeed, a form of bigotry. Without a compelling state/public interest to justify it, criminalization is, indeed, a form of bigotry.

    They noticed kids kept coming out messed up when people are increasingly related.

    That could, in theory, justify prohibiting procreation, but not the relationship itself. Two siblings are perfectly capable of raising an adopted child without that child "coming out messed up". Justify your argument in a non-biologically-procreative relationship. You can assume same-biological-sex individuals, or sterility.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    It isn't. No one is against either person but a relationship that causes actual physical societal baggage ie birth defects and familial rape.

    Why the fuck would you want it legal for a father to fuck their child because let's be clear the person your interjecting yourself with says no form of incest should be illegal as long as they're "of age" and who knows what that actually equals given some states or was like 14 until recently.

    Weird hill to die on, weird bedfellow to choose.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    It isn’t.

    I understand your unsupported opinion. I feel I've adequately demonstrated mine.

    a relationship that causes actual physical societal baggage ie birth defects

    Sorry, I've already conceded the birth defects issue, but that only affects a procreative relationship. I've asked you to consider a non-procreative relationship.

    and familial rape

    Rape is already criminalized, regardless of the legal status of incest. Decriminalizing incest does not in any way affect the criminalization of familial rape.

    Why the fuck would you want it legal for a father to fuck their child

    Where did I say anything of the sort? That relationship violates the power imbalance standard. Incest does not need to be criminalized for that relationship to be prohibited.

    no form of incest should be illegal as long as they’re “of age” and who knows what that actually equals given some states or was like 14 until recently.

    I feel that is not at all a reasonable representation of OP's position. OP made no argument about a 14-year-old. This topic is too sensitive to tolerate less-than-genuine representations of each other's arguments.

    Please engage honestly, earnestly, and in good faith, or don't engage at all.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 13 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Bro you're bending over backwards to defend word nuanced incest that seems to be a weird caveat only you need to have.

    Dude literally wants it to be legal, all forms. You're defending a pro rape advocate which I'm sorry makes you a pro rape advocate. Think it through Buddy, what your doing is gross.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    That's simply dishonest. OP clearly specified only cases where capability and consent are present. You are deliberately misrepresenting them. You are making a strawman argument: the point you are trying to make exists solely within your own head.

    Engage in good faith, or do not engage at all.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)

    No he doesn't. What the fuck are you reading?

    Literally the comments they were banned for. https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/339cfb4b-1bff-4421-9469-241ea43fe4de.png

    Ed: you misunderstand her said so long as they consent, until iirc a year ago the lowest age of consent was 14. Op is saying after 16 incest should be legal with consent. None of your nuance, none of your direct relative exceptions. Just can they say yes?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    I see. OP used the phrase "old enough", and you think that refers to something other than "old enough".

    We aren't having a discussion on the appropriate age of consent. We are having a discussion on incest. We will not be considering any participant unless YOU deem them "old enough". We will only be talking about people that meet your definition of "old enough". Feel free to raise the age of consent to 21, 25, 47. Whatever you deem an appropriate age is the age we will be using.

    Insisting that OP is referring to underage individuals when they say "old enough" is intellectually dishonest. Engage in good faith, or don't engage at all.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    I refer to it that way because they don't get specific and I think that's for very specific reasons they refuse to deny but please do deny it on their behalf.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    "Old enough" is sufficiently specific for you to assume "old enough". Assuming anything less than "old enough" from the phrase "old enough" is a bad faith argument.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Old enough is wildly unspecific if they don't want that to happen it's easy to get specific. Notably they haven't denied it and haven't gotten specific.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    Old enough is wildly unspecific

    True, and irrelevant: OP's argument does not depend on this specificity. OP's argument prevails no matter what age you decide is "old enough". OP's argument requires you remain consistent on that point: You cannot provide an age that is simultaneously "old enough" and "not old enough". OP's argument requires that you only consider participants above that age; "not old enough" remains a criminal offense.

    You are continuing to make bad faith arguments. Engage in good faith, or do not engage.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    It really really does. But again you abandoned your entire argument to focus on age because your bullshit scenario doesn't exist and your example was similarly made up.

    Talk about bad faith, you fucking made up Canadian law.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Nah, I didn't abandon anything. I've presented my whole argument, and I've adequately rebutted every point you've made. You have yet to provide any sort of justification for intruding on personal agency of competent adults. You've yet to provide any compelling state interest for interfering with freedom of association, both of which are necessary for criminalizing behavior.

    We got hung up on age because you have insisted on inserting insinuations of pedophilia where underage participants are explicitly excluded.

    I had a much better discussion elsewhere in this thread, where we were able to delve deeper into more important issues. The principal difference between that conversation and this one is that (for the most part) the parties argued in good faith, rather than assuming malfeasance. I don't think either of us convinced the other, but we did more broadly address the topic, rather than getting ourselves hung up on a pedantic discussion of an inconsequential phrase.

    I feel this conversation has devolved to a point where no further insight is forthcoming. Thanks for playing.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    You totally abandoned it in favor of hammering about age. Answer the question asked or you're abandoning the argument, that's how it works bud.

    What laws are you referencing that make your weird fridge examples illegal.

    I didn't insert pedophillia they did by referencing age of consent as the only boundary but fail to give that number and when that happens I get to assume. The lowest religious age of consent I know of is first blood which is around 14 most of the time and in the US I think it was one of the Carolinas that had the age of marriage and consent at 14 until like last year or something crazy like that.

    You've said that like six times and it's always weirdly enough when there's a question in the table that is hard for you to answer and keep up your bullshit.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago* (6 children)

    Because incest isn't inherently bad and we already have crimes for all the reasons it could be bad.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [+] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)
  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    Are you really arguing that laws are synonymous with morality?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    The word moral is not said in that comment at all nor is it implied in any way. Just answer the question in front of you with the words that actually exist therein.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    You mean where you started calling me a molester, misgendered me, and said I defend fucking kids? No thanks. You seem too riled up for the kind of conversation.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Uh huh, so just time delay drive by bullshit then? Neat. See you tomorrow when you defend Nazis or whatever. Same bat time same bat place?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (-1 replies)