you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 14 points 2 months ago (89 children)

If you ascribe any level of sentience or intelligence to a computer, you definitely feel much less dumb than you actually are.

  • source
  • hideshow 89 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 25 points 2 months ago* (57 children)

    I mean, I'm all for local LLMs, but they are as sentient as a really good weather prediction model.

    aka not at all.

    Its just a fact of how they operate, mechanically. They are missing too many characteristics for it to even be an entertainable question.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 57 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago* (36 children)

    I mean... No? Absolutely not.

    I dont even know where to begin. Maybe with their state being fixed in time; LLMs do not change. An sci fi analogy might be the "no timers" in orion's arm, who are but a single thought frozen in an infinite loop in time:

    https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/47f4311eaef31

    Except they arent even that, because its just a next word completion model, not something that thinks. It is not self aware.

    https://arxiv.org/pdf/2503.09211

    https://openreview.net/forum?id=klU4737opt

    https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.09762

    This becomes (to me) very obvious if you ever use an LLM in raw completion mode. It very smart, but at the end of the day its no different than a weather prediction model spitting out probabilities for a storm system.


    Chat finetuning is meant to get humans to anthropomorphize them by training on human preferences, and the interface further reinforces this. Its all a trick, albeit a very elaborote one.

    Will future architectures be closer to "thinking?"

    Maybe.

    But we are a long way away.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 36 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    Are cells sentient? Bacteria, fungi, etc. Do you think they have any degree of interiority, like how simple animals do?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (8 children)

    Exactly. It's not so cut and dry. Are they? You can never know until you experience their existence.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (7 children)

    Lol no. Actually cells are demonstrably NOT sentient. They have no capacity for choice. No capacity for emotion or experience. They are literally molecular machinery. And we(scientists) understand that machinery to a shocking degree.

    If you think cells have any degree of sentience, then you must make a similar argument for advanced clockwork machines. Not robots, pure wind-up clockwork automata.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    Ah, so you've experienced each of their existences? Fascinating.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (5 children)

    Please explain to me how a wristwatch is sentient or conscious.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    I can't, since I've never been a wristwatch. Maybe they're not, or maybe they are through a mechanism for which science has no current explanation. We can't know, only surmise.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Okay, then you're not actually engaging in any degree of coherence. Your ignorance is not wisdom, despite what you seem to have convinced yourself.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    That's some impressive hubris you've got.

    So tell me, in your infinite wisdom, from where does sentience arise and what is the smallest organism that is sentient?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    You seem to have this backwards. YOU'RE the one making a claim, so the burden of proof is on you. I'm saying it's impossible to know, you are saying you know without a doubt. Prove it.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Them

    LLMs do not change

    You

    Not with agents and chain of thought. Agents can run for hours continuously

    Those are not the same concepts. The model of LLM remain unchanged. Agents running for hours just modify the prompt they input into an LLM model.

    I do not care about the rest of discussion, just swoop in to clarify that distinction.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (5 children)

    But what when an LLM trains its self?

    Thats what I'm saying. They cannot do this, not even close. Even a fruit fly is somewhat adaptive and can respond to novel stimuli, but an LLM effectively cant.

    There are tiny experimental models closer to a fruit fly than large LLMs now.

    ...What about future world models with some adaptive learning loop, sampling stripped out, and so on?

    Yeah! That would be fascinating. Then sentience starts to become more of a question.

    But thats not what LLMs are.

    People like Altman and Modi have grossly overexaggerated what current LLM architectures are capable of, they trained the LLMs to reinforce the illusion as much as they can, and they arent to inclined to change it. Hence all the good researchers have fled to research world models, and are saying transformers LLMs are not a viable path forward.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (3 children)

    Well, theres a lot of experimentation with actual neural nets mimicing biology (or literally using biological neurons), and I think that could start to raise the spectre.

    World model research could be a significant component of that.

    In principle, OP is right; humans are just machines. All I constest is that transformers LLMs are even in the same ballpark, or possibly a path there... they are not.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    Well biological structures can be replicated mechanically. So at risk of being pedantic, that's not strictly true.

    I view "artificial" as just a term for conscious, purpose construction, whereas "natural" does not involve any conscious intelligence, as in "naturally occurring in nature." But even that is a spectrum, I guess, with genetic manipulation, BCIs, all sorts of intermediate possibilities.

    I'd call a constructed, purely biological brain "artificial" because, even if it was grown naturally, it was built with conscious intent.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (13 children)

    I can’t believe how many pro-AI arguments essentially boil down to “I do not understand words”.

    We have a very solid and explicit definition of what conscious means:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conscious#medicalDictionary

    The best neuroscientists in the world do not even fully understand the complicated intricacies of the workings of the human mind. We do understand 100% exactly how computers work. There is no comparison.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 13 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    I haven't even argued that AI is concious, I have said that we do not understand consciousness enough to define it. You have completely missed the point. This is Dunning-Kruger at its peak. You are vastly oversimplifying things, at what size of brain is an animal considered conscious or capable of thought? Define thought. We don't even have a solid understanding of life, much less thoughts. Yes we have a word definition, no we do not know where the line begins and ends. It is a philosophical question that remains unanswered.

    This definition is already making so many assumptions and over simplifications. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thought

    We understand that the brain is what gives us our cognition, we understand that the brain is made up of chemical and electrical signals. We are not special.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Discussing the consciousness of neural networks is NOT being pro-AI. I'd say it's even the opposite, as it displays the danger of such a technology.

    Most of the words in the definition have multiple interpretations, it is not as easy as you wish it would be.

    Finally, we do NOT at all know how trained neural networks work. We know how training and inference work. We can read the neurons, but the shear size of weights make it a rather impenetrable black box we have to study, partially, to understand the goals of the emergent sub networks.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (13 children)

    Well, that may very well be the most depressing comment I’ve ever read.

    You either need to work on your listening skills or find some new less-vacant people to interact with, because what you’re saying is insane

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 13 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (7 children)

    I've tried. They're adamant against AI here. It's not even worth the discussion. There's an army of belligerent people here who have made up their minds that LLM are "stochastic parrots" and they're convinced they understand exactly how they work. No one can tell them otherwise. Doesn't even matter your credentials. They're the experts here. If you argue, they'll only belittle you.

    Save yourself the frustration and heartache; just silently pity them.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Surely you know that under the hood we're all just algorithms? Electrical impulses determining what we're going to do before our own consciousness are aware of the impending decision.

    You make the mistake of ascribing more importance to the "1s and 0s" of neuron activity we ourselves encompass, and imagining that a different arrangement of that exact same activity could not possibly yield a similar outcome. It's like saying plants can't be alive because they don't have brains.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Sorry, 'h0tbeef', I forgot that only you understand consciousness and only you know how it is defined. So only you know what qualifies, because of your superior understanding that no one else can possibly hope to have.

    Of course, only humans are capable of being conscious, you're absolutely right as always. You're so clever, you should go reward yourself with a cookie.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (2 children)

    You overestimate most people. Here's a study from 2025

    https://arxiv.org/html/2211.13087

    Among AI models, Blenderbot stood out: in AI-AI conversations, it was judged human 67% of the times - more often than actual human-human conversations. In human-AI conversations, human participants were labeled as humans 68% of the time, and AIs were classified as AI 56% of the time.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (1 child)

    This is an interesting study. I wonder why there’s such a disparity between the number of AI ‘participants’ (10) and human participants (1,916). I wonder how adding additional AI models would impact the data.

    Anyway, this is just benchmarking the AI on 6 language specific tasks. They were programmed and set up specifically to perform whatever specific one task they had to do at the time, that is what computers do. The fact that computers are 1% better at recognizing other computers than humans are is irrelevant.

    AI cannot pass the Turing Test, this article is about “6 Turing like tasks” and it can’t even pass those yet, lmao. You know they’re already seeing diminishing returns in further training right?

    Even in this article it says that even if AI could pass a real Turing Test it wouldn’t be a sign of intelligence or cognition.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Something I should point out just in case is that 50% success rate is the same as random chance. So when the study says:

    AIs were classified as AI 56% of the time.

    That really means that humans could not tell the difference between AI and human, since their success rate was almost the same as random chance.

    6 language specific tasks. They were programmed and set up specifically to perform whatever specific one task they had to do at the time, that is what computers do.

    Sure, and that task was "imitate humans", and these computers seem remarkably good at it. That's what I'm saying. I don't care that these AI work differently than humans. They can imitate humans so well that humans can't tell the difference.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I 100% say as a sentient human being that no llm I have used has any sentience. It can't even understand its own output.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • load more comments (2 replies)
  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Nice strawman you got there. Is this relevant to the post, or do you just feel like calling random unrelated people dumb?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Arguing against your staunch certainty is not the same as fully believing the counter point. I don't believe LLMs are conscious either, but claiming to be the arbiter of sentience is quite arrogant. Especially when we don't understand it ourselves.

    Yes, we understand the mechanisms of biology, but we do not understand our subjective experience of freewill, or if it even exists.

    Which is why your claim is both a strawman and a non sequitur.

    And reading briefly through the comments, most people seem to be arguing against your certainty, not actually claiming to believe the opposite.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I don't think you have the cognitive requirements to understand why your dictionary definitions are completely irrelevant here

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (3 replies)
  • [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    If you continue down to the section on “digital sentience” you will find other sentences that directly contradict your assertions,

    So, then, what are my assertions?

    Please read my comments so far carefully. Do not hallucinate. Do not make assumptions that aren't in my text. Do not make mistakes.

    Then find those supposed assertions of mine that Wikipedia seems to contradict.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    Well your main assertion was a wildly incorrect definition of sentience.

    You go on to say that (and I’m paraphrasing) “sentience is in the eye of the beholder”, which is also wrong.

    There’s also the implication that you do think computers are sentient, but you haven’t typed that specifically; I know you said you didn’t want assumptions, but this is a fair inference. Someone who wasn’t emotionally invested I the idea of chatbot sentience wouldn’t push back so hard with basically 0 facts to back them up.

    Your final assertion is that the Wikipedia article doesn’t immediately contradict you, which again, it does in the first sentence. You can see my previous comment for that information tho, I’m not retyping it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago*

    You go on to say that (and I’m paraphrasing) “sentience is in the eye of the beholder”, which is also wrong.

    So you are misinterpreting my statement, calling it "paraphrasing", to create a strawman argument that I never said.

    There’s also the implication that you do think computers are sentient

    Again, misinterpretation to flesh out the strawman.

    I know you said you didn’t want assumptions, but this is a fair inference.

    Fair, if by fair you mean pure lies.

    Someone who wasn’t emotionally invested I the idea of chatbot sentience wouldn’t push back so hard with basically 0 facts to back them up.

    Because someone who doesn't 100% agree with you must obviously have the exactly opposite opinion of you. False dicotomy, to again push the strawman.

    Your final assertion is that the Wikipedia article doesn’t immediately contradict you, which again, it does in the first sentence. You can see my previous comment for that information tho, I’m not retyping it.

    Yeah, of course, if you think that what I am saying is something entirely different than what I'm saying, than of course it means whatever the hell you hallucinate.

    I wouldn't be surprised if you are ChatGPT by the amount of shitty "inference" and hallucination you produce.


    Here's my position: The question whether an AI is sentient or not is beside the point. Sentience means nothing, because it means whatever anyone wants it to mean right now.

    AIs are computer programs, nothing more than that. Whether they are sentient, sapient, intelligent, feeling or not doesn't matter in the slightest, because the definition of any of these terms can change depending on who's asking.

    The bigger question behind these terms is: Does an AI deserve the protection of basic human rights? That's the actual question that these terms are a proxy for. I say no. Certainly AI doesn't deserve the protection of basic human rights.


    Let's get back to the Wikipedia article.

    I claimed that sentience isn't well-defined. The first line in the Wikipedia article is:

    Sentience is the ability to experience feelings and sensations.

    What are feelings and sensations then?

    Following the definition of "feeling":

    According to the APA Dictionary of Psychology, a feeling is "a self-contained phenomenal experience"; feelings are "subjective, evaluative, and independent of the sensations, thoughts, or images evoking them".

    A feeling is an experience. What's an experience?

    Experience refers to conscious events in general, more specifically to perceptions, or to the practical knowledge and familiarity that is produced by these processes.

    An experience is knowledge and familiarity gained by perceptions. What is a perception?

    Perception (from Latin perceptio 'gathering, receiving') is the identification, interpretation and organization of sensory information, in order to represent and understand the presented information or environment.

    So a perception depends on sensory information. What's that?

    A sense is a biological system used by an organism for sensation, the process of gathering information about the surroundings through the detection of stimuli.

    Ok, here we have the arbitrary requirement of "biological", otherwise anything you get from a stimulus. So what's that?

    In physiology, a stimulus[1] is a change in an organism's internal or external environment.

    So a vision tool would suffice. LLMs with vision capability exist.

    The sensations from the original definition are also covered here.


    So in the end it comes down to what are your definitions, and depending on that it literally means nothing. By the definitions above, a script that logs the readings off a temperature sensor could be defined as "sentient". And if you route it through an organic sensor even the "biological" part is covered.

    The term is a nothing burger that means literally anything and nothing at the same time.

    This is where my investment in this topic comes from. All these terms (sentience, sapience, intelligence, ...) are defined in the vaguest ways possible. They mean nothing. And still people get worked up like crazy over them, making crazy assumptions about whether animals or AI are deserving of rights, personhood and all that stuff.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (10 replies)