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Social Security can be saved. Scrap the cap! (lemmy.today)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/workreform@lemmy.world
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[+] -15 points 2 months ago (40 children)

If you make more than $184k you pay zero dollars into social security. The other part is you aren’t getting any benefits.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Absolutely true. Also just like, fundamentally bullshit, and perfectly reasonable to consider expansion of the cap.

    Those currently over the cap reap outsized benefits borne from the labor of those who don't make the cap. That's how they fucking made it, above the cap.

    There is no moral turpitude in taxing them to fund a social net they won't directly use, because they've been indirectly benefitting from it all along.

    The piddling argument I can already hear you making, gets even more ridiculous when you scale past the professionally licensed professions and get into pure capitalists.

    This is a compromise being offered, in lieu of the buffet table, and of course they're gonna be too fucking stupid to accept it because the morons forgot the bread part and all they got left is their shitty circus.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    I pay taxes knowing that I won't benefit directly from many of my country's programs. New train lines? I drive. Free health care? I'm healthy. Free school lunches? I'm not a child and I don't have children. Social housing? I own my apartment.

    But the thing is, I benefit directly. It means that everyone around me has a reasonable standard of living. I'm surrounded by healthy, literate people with clean clothes and full bellies. That pushes my standard of living up. I'm happy to be taxed.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It also means when you do need them they are available. Car broke down, take the train. Get sick, hospitals aren't backed up with people that don't have preventative care and are more acutely sick than should be. This statement also includes homeless that get sick from living on the street and fill EDs.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    What piddling argument do you think I’m making when I state facts about the tax code.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Can already hear you making

    This implies preemptive assumptions on my part. I could be wrong. You stated facts, true.

    If that is the extent of your stance on the topic, then that portion of my comment is irrelevant, and needlessly combative.

    Not that I'm apologizing for it, these are not the times for that.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

    They pay social security taxes on the first 184k/yr. They do not pay taxes on that part of their income above 184k.

    They do, actually, receive social security checks, regardless of income or need, beginning at (or possibly before) the age of 70. Since they've been paying in the maximum, they are receiving the maximum benefit, $4152 per month, rather than the median benefit of $2083 per month.

    You are wrong on both counts.

    Further, there is a very strong correlation between income level and life expectancy. The median worker is typically collecting that $2083/mo benefit until age 76. But the median life expectancy of the wealthy is 9 years longer: They are typically collecting that $4152 benefit until age 85.

    The people you are talking about are the ones posing the very highest drain on the system.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Liar liar pants on fire. You can delude yourself and try to deceive the community all you want. You will continue to be wrong though.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Reading your arguments, you're claiming that if I earn $184,499, I owe $22,000 in social security tax, because I don't put a zero on line 9 of page 9 of the self employment tax deduction worksheet.

    But if I earn $184,501, the IRS is going to give me a $22,000 refund for exceeding the social security wage cap.

    By your argument, if I'm actually making about $120,000, I should just claim to have earned $184,500. After paying taxes on the missing $64,500, I'd still come out ahead.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    It’s isn’t an argument, it is the tax code.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Show me a financial advisor making the same point I just made. If the tax code says I can get a $22,000 refund simply by claiming to have earned $184,500 instead of a lower number, every financial advisor in the country will have done the math on what I just estimated. There should be a range of income that a taxpayer should never claim.

    If what you are saying is true, either do the math yourself, or find the financial advisor who has done the math, and tell me the break even point. The exact point where the additional taxes I pay (by falsely claiming greater income) will equal the ~$22,000 of social security tax you think the government will refund me.

    If this were actually true, it would be the largest tax loophole accessible to the middle class. This supposed loophole approaches the value of a small car, each and every year.

    Do me a favor: run that worksheet on $174,500 income, $184,500 income, and $194,500 income. Show me that the final self employment tax deduction for each of those three scenarios supports your argument.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Well that is wrong on both accounts, unless you assume SS will be bankrupt before you can collect anything.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Dude I'm a milennial, I already accepted the fact that I'm not getting any benefits.

    I'm 41 now. I have a funny feeling that in the next 25 years, the retirement age will go up, and the number of people living long enough to collect it will go down.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    All my life, I was told SS wouldn't be there for me, and now I'm collecting it.

    If you tell DC that you expect it to go away, and you'll accept that outcome, no matter how much you hate it, that's exactly what they'll do.

    Stop surrendering in advance, and wasting your time posting such pathetic messages. Use your posts to warn them that they are being watched and JUDGED, by the people who have that right. They need to be afraid of us at all times.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    It's not sustainable. Our generation isn't having kids, hell we aren't even having houses.

    And I wouldn't be surprised if we end up wasting a good chunk of 18-25 year olds between now and then, too.

    There will not be enough workers to support us in old age.

    I honestly do not see any way for SS to last another 25 years.

    I wouldn't be surprised if an absurdly high percentage of Beta Babies (zoomers kids) are unintended. At least in America. So many of my generation have completely given up hope in the future of this country and western society as a whole. The real reason Republicans are going so hard on abortion again...nobody is having babies on purpose.

    We're all just patiently waiting for our parents to fucking die so we can turn this around. But it's still gonna be like trying to swerve the Titanic.

    And as a generation we are getting fucked when our parents die, because they all fell for reverse mortgages and had to put all their savings towards end of life care, so nobody can even inherit shit. All going to the banks and the corrupt as hell insurance and medical industries.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Mate, I hear ya. Everything you said has many kernels of truth in it, but it doesn't invalidate what the commenter you're replying to, is trying to tell you.

    There will not be enough workers to support us in old age.

    This is precisely, why it's important to badger and force representatives into the exact same discussion about changes to the bill, as the OOP's shared article touches upon.

    You first raise the cap, so the millionaires who are temporarily embarrassed billionaires pay their fair share, and once those loud mother fuckers get used to it, they're now on your side to keep pushing it up until it hits the owner class.

    Productivity gains ain't decreasing, and the automation that the labor class toiled to make a reality for these fuckheads, shouldn't have all of its production gain remain as profit for the owners

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (19 children)

    Anybody making more than the cap still pays the tax. The cap just means as far as social security is concerned, you only are taxed and provided benefits as though you earned $184k.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (18 children)

    Go through the irs form here, page 9. Self employed folks making more than the max put in 0 for SS. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040es.pdf

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    That's the instructions for the 1040#es a voluntary form where you estimate you taxes you will owe and make quarterly payments. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040sse.pdf look at line 8a of this form.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    That form does not calculate social security tax. It calculates an estimated self employment tax. None of the numbers on that page are the amount of tax owed in social security. Lines 5-9 are calculating how much additional tax you can deduct because you are paying social security tax on the first 184.5K of your income. When your income exceeds 184.5k, you are not paying additional social security tax, so you are not entitled to a greater deduction against your self-employment tax.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (12 children)

    The qualifier you put under here, which is not in your original comment, is if you're self-employed. What if you aren't? (Let's ignore the question of if you should be at that income.)

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (11 children)

    It is a qualifier. The tax code doesn’t exactly make sense but I’d expect if self-employed doesn’t have to contribute why would an employee. Self employed people have to pay both the employer and employee portion, while employees only pay to employee part.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (10 children)

    Okay, so you're talking about something where you have the bare minimum of knowledge. That's cool, this is the internet after all. Not being an American, I haven't spent a lot of time reading their tax laws or forms. I dont know if that applies to you. But I try to be more informed if I'm going to argue on the internet, and it appears SS is a marginal tax just like many others. In this case, it's a flat tax up to $184.5k this year, and 0 for income above that amount. So your initial point was also wrong.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    I have more than the bare amount of knowledge. I correctly conveyed actual tax code for the us. My initial point was not wrong in the slightest and I linked to actual irs tax forms to prove it. You are misinformed and shouldn’t try correcting people on items you clearly don’t understand.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (8 children)

    You said if you made over $184k you would pay $0 into SS. In fact you would pay over $20k. How is that correct?

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    I already posted the IRS form that demonstrates that fact.

    There is a wrinkle that during the year until your received income actually exceeds the max you pay in. After that though the IRS will return the money when you file.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Have you heard of Schedule C? It's mentioned at the bottom of page 9 in the pdf you linked. But please, do keep doubling down.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    You misread the IRS form that you think demonstrates that. It is not doing anything of the sort.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Then prove it liar.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago
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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Wage_Base

    Your claim arises not from a calculation on how much social security tax can be claimed. It comes from misreading a worksheet calculating deductions from self employment tax. You're seeing a "zero" entry on one line of that worksheet and claiming it means you don't pay social security taxes. You don't seem to realize that the deduction calculates how much social security tax you pay, and increases the deduction based on that amount.

    When you reach $184,500 of income, you do not pay any additional social security tax. You don't pay any social security tax on the additional income above $184,500. You do pay social security tax on the income up to and including $184,500.

    If you follow the worksheet, it will only allow you to deduct the amount of social security tax you actually pay, which means you are not allowed to deduct any additional social security tax on income over $184,500.

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