Late Stage Capitalism

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 0 points 3 months ago (8 children)

All I said was that we have no context on the video (is Morocco transporting migrants or did they intercept a transport, the exact opposite of the narrative presented? Since this appears to be in the middle of nowhere). Morocco generally has good relations with Spain when it comes to taking migrants back (by the end of the day the vast majority had already returned).

Then I mentioned we had zero evidence presented that Israel is involved. The "strongest" evidence presented is a couple tweets from Netanyahu's son from 7 years ago. Not very compelling imo, especially given the evidence for completely different reasons for this migration wave, that Sanchez also gave.

Then I highlighted how this narrative was playing directly into the right's hand, by having the left agree that "migrants are invading Europe" which in the Ceuta case is ridiculous by itself since it isn't a Shengen area. And I pointed the genuine, unadulterated antisemitism under those tweets, "Jews control the world"-type shit (and worse).

I never disputed that Israel does shady shit, nor that it is a disgusting genocidal state. But apparently that's "zionism" according to ".ml".

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[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (7 children)

So you simply ignore all what i said on why israel is involved?

The right exploiting an event is not a reason to reject evidence of that event it is so ridiculous. It like also saying people should not oppose isis becsuse the right could use it to say all muslims are terrorists and a dsnger to the western world

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 0 points 3 months ago (6 children)

But what evidence is there of Israel paying off the king of Morocco to have the Moroccan army send migrants to the border of Ceuta? Because that's the alleged conspiracy here. One video without context which could very well be demonstrating the opposite, that's it. In the original now-removed comment I even explained why it'd be strange for Morocco to be involved like this.

I'm not saying that Israel never pulls shady shit; they obviously do (gotta complete a genocide, hard to do without shady shit). The point is that in this case the right uses this to attack innocent third parties who genuinely have nothing to do with this. It's not a reason to reject evidence, it's a reason to be careful with random conspiracy theories that conveniently (and falsely) validate some of the right's main talking points.

If there was actual evidence presented that Israel is involved with this incident, then we should by all means share and publicly accuse. But no such evidence has been presented. I'm not rejecting evidence, I'm stating it doesn't even exist in the first place, or rather isn't being presented here. But I'm not going to go along with a random "jewish conspiracy to ethnically replace christians with muslims" on a whim.

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[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

Where did you read about the paid part, i only heard of israel being involved, that's all. What exact evidence are you looking for? The article, the media being connected to the government narratives, Netenyahu son and israeli un envoy claiming that spain is colonizing marroccan land are all solid evidence to me that israelnwas involved.

I also adressed the right profiting from the event. The fact that the video is a real video of a group of maroccan alone is enough for the far right to weaponize the event regardless of if israel is involved or not

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev -1 points 3 months ago (4 children)

Israel being critical of Spain doesn't mean they're involved in dumping migrants over the border. It's quite a leap to go from a tweet from Netanyahu's son from 7 years ago to Ceuta today. That's at best evidence of poor relations between Israel and Spain, not of Israeli involvement in human trafficking in Ceuta.

The "paid part" is the implication when the conspiracy is that the Moroccan military is dumping migrants across the border as dictated by Israel. They wouldn't be doing that for free and implies that the Moroccan government is complicit as well.

The fact that the video is a real video of a group of maroccan alone is enough for the far right to weaponize the event regardless of if israel is involved or not

Sure, but the left shouldn't legitimize their false narratives as that hurts other people. Nor should it legitimize actual antisemitists.

What exact evidence are you looking for?

Literally anything that proves A) this was orchestrated by the government, whether that's the Moroccan or the Israeli one and B) an actual concrete link between the wave of migrants and the Israeli government. That seems to be the bare minimum required to even entertain a conspiracy theory like this. But I honestly think the conspiracy is a little ridiculous on its face (Morocco wouldn't go along with this) so I personally am not actively trying to prove anything here.

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[–] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Israel being critical of Spain doesn’t mean they’re involved in dumping migrants over the border.

When the criticism are ultra specific yes it is very legitimate to believe Israel is involved

The “paid part” is the implication when the conspiracy is that the Moroccan military is dumping migrants across the border as dictated by Israel. They wouldn’t be doing that for free and implies that the Moroccan government is complicit as well.

So it is just your assumption that people said . Like the Ynet article that is spreading israel narrative mention because of the abraham accords, the Moroccan dictatorship is helping Israel destabilizing Spain. The video literally show someone in Morocco's Royal Gendarmerie clothes. Unless Morocco provide evidence that person is not a real Gendarmerie person they have to show evidence of the man identity

Literally anything that proves A) this was orchestrated by the government, whether that’s the Moroccan or the Israeli one and B) an actual concrete link between the wave of migrants and the Israeli government. That seems to be the bare minimum required to even entertain a conspiracy theory like this. But I honestly think the conspiracy is a little ridiculous on its face (Morocco wouldn’t go along with this) so I personally am not actively trying to prove anything here.

This video explain it well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T3dOU4VQYY&t=1s

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[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev -1 points 3 months ago* (2 children)

Morocco is not a dictatorship lol.

The video shows someone in the Moroccan gendarmerie unloading migrants from a truck. We don't know any context other than that: where and when was the video taken, was this officer trafficking migrants or did they stop a truck they suspected was trafficking people and forced them to unload? If you're dumping migrants over a sea border, dumping them in the middle of a road doesn't seem very sensible. And IIRC that officer never shows his face, so identification will be next to impossible (could even be a staged video if you want to go the conspiracy route, to spur further division between Spain and Morocco).

Morocco also hasn't seemed very keen on exploiting the situation. Initial inaction can clearly be explained as surprise and requiring some mobilisation. Plus, Morocco cooperated once it kicked off, taking back everyone.

That Israel seeks to exploit this happening seems obvious. But even that video clearly states at the end that none of what was discussed is evidence of Israeli involvement.

To be clear, I'm all fine with speculating, and I think it's valuable to discuss this sort of stuff. And I don't discount the possibility that Israel is involved after all. But I do take issue with it being presented as established fact, in a way that conveniently amplifies far-right talking points, with some added antisemitism on top. We should be singing Sanchez's praises for sending all of these migrants back successfully, defending the border (unless you're of the "workers of the world should know no borders" kind ofc, that's also valid), rather than entertaining conspiracy theories with no evidence.