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Young Men (quokk.au)
submitted 3 months ago by [A] to c/quotes
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[–] 7 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (14 children)

Like the above comment I am also a man who already finds the idea of rape abhorrent, and always did. This is also true, as far as I am able to discern, of all my friends and people I regularly associate with.

But I'm still in the described situation, where the prevalent messaging implies that I am somehow complicit and not doing enough. Am I expected to interrogate my coworkers and people on the street just in case, so I can confront them on these opinions if they happen to have them? Clearly not, but there's still this unspoken pressure that I should be doing more, and I have no idea what that looks like.

edit: Making this comment was a mistake.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    A great place to start is recognizing your own responsibility and recognizing that despite the fact that you find rape abhorrent, you have likely done it without knowing.

    Recognizing that is a good first step.

    I remember having this same conversation with my husband years ago and seeing how disgusted he felt with himself when he realized that pestering his highschool girlfriend until her "not right now" turned into a "sure okay" was, in fact, rape.

    Realizing that good people are capable of rape, and that we are human, and that consent matters above all else is a place to start.

    Realizing that even when a woman says "asking for consent ruins the mood" that she is internalizing rape culture and that it doesn't mean you should stop asking tor consent is a place to start.

    Fuck, I used to say that when I was young and stupid, and I realize now that I was wrong and absolutely internalized rape culture. I now think asking for consent is very sexy now that it's recontextualized.

    A good place to start is reflecting and recognizing all the ways you have perpetuated rape culture in your life.

    Do not assume that you haven't, because you have. You may not have intended to, but we all have perpetuated it.

    You are not exempt from this and assuming we are innocent is what keeps us from progress.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Starting a post with an accusation of rape isn't really a great starting position, and frankly I find it disturbing that the default assumption is that it is likely I have pressured someone for sex at some point in my life. I have accepted a "not right now" as a no for as long as I can recall, and the idea that someone might actually suggest that "asking for consent ruins the mood" is, frankly, insane to me.

    I did take a moment to reflect, and came up with nothing. I can think of one instance where I tried to initiate, but I felt my partner tense up before anything really happened. What happened next was I immediately stopped. She didn't even say no, but I knew she didn't want to continue.

    I'm sorry your husband committed rape, and that you have apparently internalized the idea that all men are probably rapists to perhaps help accept that fact. I am not.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    I get the idea you're not even buying what you're selling here with how defensive you got. I don't believe that you even believe you've never broken a boundary.

    Truly, I don't give a fuck if you have, because I don't think fucking up when you're young makes you a bad person. You asked what else you can do, I said self-reflect. Maybe do that in private for more than 5 minutes. Don't report back.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago*

    I honestly do apologize. Feel free to ignore this since you said don't report back, but I wanted to reply after some more reflection regardless.

    You're correct that I don't believe I've broken a boundary, but I also am willing to accept that I'm simply not aware of a boundary I've broken. Unfortunately I remain unaware. I hope you understand that I am unable to comment on things I'm not aware of, and for better or for worse that's simply where I stand right now.

    For whatever it's worth, if there is some boundary I've crossed, I'm sorry for that. I want to emphasize that's not a "I'm sorry you feel that way" non-apology but a genuine remorse for whatever harm I've caused someone. I don't want to hurt people.

    In addition to the general apology, I want to directly apologize for my closing paragraph about your husband and the suggestion that you had internalized some kind of rationalization for the situation. It was uncalled for.

    I will not be further editing or removing any of my prior comments to cover up statements I regret, as I believe complete context is important for anyone who stumbles across this later.

    Not expecting a reply. I hope you find other interactions more pleasant than this one.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah dude, "you're projecting trauma" as a response to someone pointing out that these are values that are dominant in our society -- as I have said multiple times -- really shows how open you are to thinking about how your internalized values effects your participation in the reproduction of rape culture.

    You know you are using the exact talking points we use to teach teens about rape culture, right? Like, word for word in some instances. Red flags all around for not an "aggressive" person, but more of a coercive, manipulative kind of perpetrator (something you see with a lot of "socialist" men who don't do the dishes). At this point, there's a high chance you've committed gender based or sexual violence with how you've been talking, because our culture literally socialized you to do it without even thinking and you're proudly saying "No, I think enough and have determined for myself that I'm not a problem." If you don't want to seem like the kind of person we teach people to look out for, maybe shut the fuck up and learn something.

    I'm fairly certain you're disingenous, but I wanted to make sure this was here in case others followed the thread above and don't see someone else point out the issues here.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Those values are dominant in our society! If anything I've said has been construed in such a way that you think I believe otherwise then I apologise.

    To be clear, rape culture is a real problem, and I do see evidence of that in society at large. I have no idea what I can do about it, as my own social circles are non-representative.

    edit: Oh, and I do, in fact, do the dishes.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

    Cool, refer to the sources I listed above. Yes, you are expected to fucking confront other men when you see them contributing to rape culture. If you're so disgusted by sexual violence, that should not be an issue for you.

    I have to confront them all the time just to defend myself, I'm sure you could handle it.

    Edit: Refer below, this guy kindly volunteered to demonstrate the exact kind of problematic behaviour I've spoken about. This is what dangerous men sound like, so be conscious that even people who are saying they don't want to do harm -- whether they mean that or not -- are still fully capable of doing harm. If someone's main concern is dissuading any liability, they're likely not very concerned about the fact that they've harmed someone.

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago* (4 children)

    when you see them contributing to rape culture

    What, the grand total of zero times? I don't go to bars or clubs, I don't go to parties where there are an appreciable number of people I don't know. The social contexts in which I do interact with people I'm not close to are either in-passing where there's no way to make that assessment, or professional, in which case we're both under considerable social constraints and such behaviour is not likely to arise even from someone with such predilections. Yes, I realise that last sentence is spoken from a position of privilege, and that behaviour does arise and is a problem for those targeted by it, but it's outside my scope of awareness and I'm not going to interrogate my coworkers on the off chance it has happened.

    I'm willing to accept that maybe back in highschool I wasn't as aware of these issues and may have let an instance slide here or there, but even if I did recall such an event that was more than two decades ago, and I'm not going to hunt down someone I haven't seen in twenty years to admonish them after the fact.

    Though come to think of it, there was one instance of it in an online chat within the past few years, and I did say something, which led to them basically flying off the handle and getting kicked from the server, so there's that at least. I guess I'm one for one?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    D'ja read'em?

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I looked at your links. No, obviously I didn't read three entire books in a couple of hours.

    I'm also not saying it's not a real problem that exists, which seems to be the point you're trying to make. If it makes you feel any better I am willing to call out such behaviour if I see it happen. I just don't see it happen, because the people I regularly socialize with aren't assholes.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

    See, the thing is, you obviously didn't even look up "rape culture," or fully read my previous comments, because you'd know that rn you're trying to claim that you never see dominant values in society through your interactions with other men (apparently, you don't have any family).

    I don't give a shit about the people who are more interested in maintaining their moral purity than actually participating in positive social change. You are primarily concerned with asserting that you're not a bad person for being complicit. Despite finding sexual violence "abhorrent," you're now actively engaging with rape culture by pretending that literally no men in your life say misogynistic shit ever or even misinformation they may genuinely not understand is harmful and are pretending that I've in any way said you have to approach random men with a prepared gotcha interview to challenge rape culture.

    Yeah dude, totally, you seem like the kind of guy who is really willing to live up to his morals. Would you shut up now? I don't care about what you have to say besides, "sorry, I'll try to learn more about this."

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  • [–] -1 points 3 months ago

    I am asking, in good faith, what extra steps I am expected to be taking here, because yes, I am claiming that I don't associate with misogynists or people who promote such misinformation. If the actual answer is "read a bunch of books on the subject" then maybe that's what I need to do? But I find it extraordinarily unlikely that it will reveal that people I interact with are secretly misogynist in ways that I can actionably address.

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