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[–] 36 points 4 months ago (107 children)

petrostate stays winning until we value the people and the land they live on more than we value the resources they stand on

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  • [–] [S] 20 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    You say that as if ordinary people got a say in any of this

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    we won't so long as we don't band together!

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    “Yes, we must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

    Benjamin Franklin

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    the mining of these resources must be done with respect and in cooperation with the people who would be harmed by doing so without respect and care. we must also take an approach of being considerate in our consumption habits, otherwise we're just participating in eco-colonialism

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    What kind of resource is that, what makes it necessary, and to whom?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Ah, well that makes it easy then. You leave the people the fuck alone, and let them go on with their lives.

    Why? Because the necessity is to some rich cunt who needs to exploit the natural resources of an area they have no larger claim to than anyone else, as well as the labour of whoever they can coerce into working there, to extract further riches for themselves. It is not about life or death. t is not about the betterment of a particular community, or society at large. It's about profit.

    This is only a necessity from a capitalistic lens. We have already extracted these materials, and they are out there ready to be reclaimed and reused. It just so happens that it's more profitable to trample communities and destroy the earth to get more of it, rather than use what we already have.

    That is the problem with capitalism. It is inimical to life and humanity, and cares only for profit. Capitalism is the paperclip maximiser.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Refusing to manufacture solar panels because the people living over the whatever refuse to let us mine the whatever would lead to us burning more fossil fuels and killing the planet sooner, and it would even be worse for the people living above the whatever.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    There are also other places you could get those materials from. Let's not pretend that it's not about a particular company wanting to extract those materials from that spot for their own profit.

    Capitalism isn't altruistic. It'll never be about things getting better for people.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Sorry, what biological change in humans made it such that humans as a species require electricity to survive? Or that made it a prerequisite to "treating human life with value"?

    Medical technology, for one thing. You can't have modern medicine without electricity. Give up electricity and you drop life expectancy back to what it was in the early 1900s:

    https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/global-average-life-expectancy-has-more-than-doubled-since-1900

    That's an awful lot of human life.

    Methinks you are conflating maintenance of the human species and maintenance of your desired quality of life.

    Methinks you have no real concept of what life was like 100 years ago.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Human existence is threatened. Just browse some of the articles at /c/climate@slrpnk.net :

    France’s June heatwave caused more than 2,700 heat-related deaths

    Warming Could Ravage a Third of Plants Used by Amazon Communities | Hotter temperatures and harsher droughts could cause Indigenous societies to lose many of the species they have used for medicine, r

    The world's oceans are warming at a record-breaking pace

    Climate change causing more species to go extinct in temperate regions, UA study shows

    It's hardly hyperbole. The environment we live in is actively disintegrating. The effects of the damage are accelerating, right now.

    The most effective thing we can do to address the problem is increase renewable energy sources: What actually works — right here, right now — to address climate change

    That means more copper, steel, aluminum and concrete, for the whole world, as quickly as we possibly can.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (86 children)

    What if one group says the land another group is standing on is actually theirs and they want to take it back? For example, what if native Americans invading aliens wanted to evict all non-natives non-aliens?

    Edit: the hypothetical seems to be pulling a lot of attention away from the point so I updated it with something hopefully less reactionary.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    generally speaking, that is not what landback advocates are calling for. landback means that it is the people who live in concert with the land who will lead its management, and it is the responsibility of others to listen and learn

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    the people who live in concert with the land

    What does that even mean? It sounds an awful lot like noble savage mythology.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I'm glad you brought this up, because it's something I want to make a distinguishment from. I do not want to fetishize or otherwise dehumanize indigenous people. I merely want to acknowledge that every culture has something they do better than anyone else. Us Europeans? We built pan-oceanic boats capable of traversing the Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, and Arctic Oceans. That's absolutely incredible! We are however, dogshit at land management. Hence the constant European desire to colonize more and more of the planet, taking up more and more land to meet the material needs of an aristocratic class that required closely shorn lawns for leisure activities such as polo and croquet.

    Meanwhile, I also do not think that indigenous north Americans were perfect. For example, the Cherokee committed a genocide against the Osage, the Inca, Aztek, and Mayans all had theocratic structures that were not great for a large number of people living in their territories, the various peoples of the Americas hunted mega-fauna they encountered to extinction. However, in order for any plan for a hopeful future, we must draw wisdom from many sources. We know this because the current European global hegemony is failing. So we need to start looking for wisdom from other sources. One of the things when we interrogate history is that prior to Europe leveraging military violence to place the global south into a perpetual state of underdevelopment is that the people of the Americas had INCREDIBLE land management strategies that were interwoven with their cultural heritages (food, language, social structures) and agricultural outputs leading to some extremely interesting crops that have become staples worldwide such as corn, potatoes, sunflowers, beans, and tomatoes.

    In conclusion: my point is to draw sources from subjugated knowledge

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    my point is to draw sources from subjugated knowledge

    Really not sure what "subjugated knowledge" is supposed to mean.

    In any case this is mostly irrelevant. It's been hundreds or thousands of years, depending on which culture you're talking about. The environmental conditions have changed, the land has changed, and the cultures are long gone. We have newer methods and better options for land and resource management, and for studying the current actual conditions, and for understanding local environments in the context of the global whole.

    the people of the Americas had INCREDIBLE land management strategies that were interwoven with their cultural heritages

    They also had a life expectancy of about 50 years and no methods for treating anything like cancer or sepsis or long-term debilitating conditions. My sister is Type 1 diabetic, she'd probably just be dead by 40.

    I agree that we should have more respect for those that came before and the work they did that we are still benefitting from today (such as the selective breeding for crops you mentioned), but we can't move forward by looking backward. The survival strategies of those past cultures don't scale up to sustain 8 billion people, we need new methods supported by new technologies, better information and system-wide analysis.

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  • [+] 8 points 4 months ago (43 children)
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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (41 children)

    It’s totally just a hypothetical.

    Even hypotheticals must be based on grounding assumptions... what was yours based on?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (40 children)

    I was originally thinking of Israel and the greater Israel project but didn't want to touch on that topic and somehow I'm still regretting it. We're getting away now from what the hypothetical was for aka scenarios where people in group X want people in group Y's land in any sense or scenario no longer specified by anything or any hypotheticals whatsoever.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (17 children)

    So I've actually known indigenous folks! They generally don't want me to leave the country and die until they date me.

    And until pretty recently, most Palestinians just wanted someplace to live and make a living. They didn't mind living alongside filthy Zionist rape monsters, new buildings put together a little taller and no new settlers imported. No idea what the general vibe is now.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    No, I responded to that too.went with your extreme straw manned misunderstanding by pointing out that we have a shitty corporation that already does that. You asked if I owned any children. I think you just want excuses to be scared of others having agency.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (13 children)

    Sure but why the fuck do I care about boomers and black rock execs? Fuck what they have. I don't even know anybody on this continent who owns a home.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    Nah. I'm a millenial. I have a couple younger genx friends, but everyone else I know was born after 1980, most of us are queer. Too many of us went to college.

    We do not own things. We will not inherit things. You're trying to provoke me to racist bullshit with the loss of a privilege that someone else already took. Like a cop shooting me with a grenade launcher and saying "yeah but imagine if a criminal had shot you!".

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (21 children)

    I was originally thinking of Israel and the greater Israel project

    Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonialist project that acts like a white supremacist settler-colonialist project... it's a pretty cut-and-dried situation.

    but didn’t want to touch on that topic

    Why not? It's a very easy topic to touch.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (19 children)

    Once again it's just a hypothetical about any scenario where group X may want group Y's land regardless of the details. Maybe group X is good maybe they are bad maybe this maybe that, I think we can step away from the specifics because we're moving away from the original point. Now you're kinda proving why, it's because I thought it would guide the conversation into being about the hypothetical more than the original point which is why I said I guess I should have used aliens.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Once again it’s just a hypothetical about any scenario where group X may want group Y’s land regardless of the details.

    Those details are important.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    in specific circumstances

    No, in all circumstances. For instance, the justifications of the coloniser can be dismissed out of hand - in all circumstances.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    It’s human nature at its core.

    Bullcrap. It's perfectly obvious where right-wing ideology comes from and who it benefits... stop pretending that all justifications are in any way equal and simply "human nature."

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    like spent time with children?

    How many children do you know that that perpetrates colonialist slaughter?

    I’ma get that tub of ice cream.

    Your attempt to de-politicise this discussion is not working - I wonder why.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Not what I meant but to entertain your continual attempts to alter the topic of discussion, in the history of humanity I suspect that's not unique.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (7 children)

    There's literally no way anyone can live alongside a Zionist. They'll rape them murder them and post it on twitter, then piss on the corpse and feed it to the dogs they use torape prisoners when they get tired.

    I've had indigenous roommates, and there was hardly any murder or rape involved at all. Nobody had a dog, and nobody pissed on anyone but themselves, and even that only when they had done lots of drugs.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Yeah because you're kind of an inchoate dipshit who was trying to compare anyone else to Zionists to defend acting like a Zionist.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (29 children)

    Worse than every landlord I've had since 2010 how?

    Fuck it, let em. I don't own shit.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (5 children)

    No, I have a world view that occasionally flirts with bare-metal reality. Yours has never been in a room with it.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (4 children)

    Once again I disagree. The general circumstance that someone or a group wants something that another individual or group does not want to give is just an aspect of being alive. It can be as simple as simple as a predator and prey to someone getting mugged to a genocide, X wants something Y doesn't want to give. Now how is that not an aspect of reality?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    But there are no people in one if those groups. Its just corporations.

    And ownership is kind of nonsense.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    In which specific instance are you referring to? All land on earth isn't owned by corporations. As for ownership, there's always an owner, even in communism the state is the owner.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Honestly? If we had an actual plan in place for where everyone would go i'd play along. I've never been to europe but it seems very nice.

    I'm not exactly keen on the idea but I can't deny that it would be pretty fair.

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